"Outclassed" - Why having the "best" car is so important in autocross

I noticed that every time SCCA Solo classes come up on GRM we talk about the "best" car or how certain cars are "outclassed". Specific example, look at my 1st Gen RX-7. It gets ES, STS, STR, CSP, or CP without an engine swap. Every one of those classes also involves a Miata, and most involve the MX5 as well. Even if by some miracle the Miatas got bumped I would be classed with the 2nd Gen RX-7 (FC), which is more powerful, has an IRS, and has a much better front suspension and brakes. Even if you popped that out and let me race just other RX-7's I'm at a disadvantage. The GSL-SE has a 130HP 13B, a normal lug pattern (so you can buy wide wheels for less than the car), and EFI. The 84-85 GSL's still got revised rear suspension pickups, better gearing, a stronger axle, and a better oil cooler.

So what's my point? Why do we worry about strength in class so much? I've beaten many a Miata (and been beaten by more than that). I think that each chassis/drivetrain has it's own strengths and weaknesses. I've been agonizing for weeks on whether or not to replace my 7 with a different one or a Miata, but you know what, I like a challenge. I'm going to build it to compete against cars that outclass it on paper by a mile. Maybe I'm a nutcase and it won't work but dammit somebody has to try to buck the trends. Otherwise you get classes like Spec-ST-Civic and Spec-ST-CRX where nobody even remotely thinks of any other chassis.

Yeah, there's a reason certain cars dominate. There's also an underdog quotient that isn't seen in Solo II that has been seen in all other racing. I intend to try and bring back some of that flavor locally. I've decided to build the wrong car for STR. Yeah, STR. With S2000's, Z3's, and MX-5's. Maybe I'll get my butt handed to me, maybe I won't. But I guarantee my car will be the one people remember.

What are your thoughts? As my specific plan nuts? Is it nuts to build any out-classed car?

P71 wrote: Is it nuts to build *any* out-classed car?

No, but it definitely is nuts if you get annoyed when it doesn't work. My geo is beaten every month by the same mini coopers, and there's not much I can do about it. Of course, the Datsun I'm building probably won't fair much better....

I dunno everyone said the 240sx was outclassed in "any" class and then one won nationals a couple years ago... was that STS? I think?

I think execution matters more than internet bench racing.

Class schmass. If its only fun in a parking lot and all but useless anywhere else then whats the point?

Fortunately, I was able to accumulate enough beer mugs with "1st" engraved on them during my first couple of years of autocrossing to satisfy my ego. It stopped being fun when guys started showing up at local events with H Stock cars on trailers. I no longer care what class my car fits into or where I finish. I focus on enjoying myself, turning consistent times and improving my skills.

I can understand when someone decides to focus on winning, but it's no longer what motivates me. I'm having more fun than I used to.

It's all amateur, no prizes except an empty bank account, so do whatever personally gets you going. If your idea of a great time is close racing with the car being a neutral factor, pick a known competitive stock car. If your passion is continually tweaking your car and collaborating on setup with your peers to wring out that last hundredth, then pick a known competitive ST/SP/P car. If your greatest dream is to show up at a big event in something nobody ever expected and surprise the crap out of everyone, then go for it, but be prepared to put in a lot of development work and maybe have to try it several times before it actually works :).

If your major motivation is the tingle in your spine when you crack the throttle or hang it around a sweeper just right, then who cares what class it's in. Just get it out there as often as possible :).

p71 said: What are your thoughts? As my specific plan nuts? Is it nuts to build any out-classed car?

If I recall correctly, you told me I was bonkers for building an EP Mustang convertible. Didn't slow me down.

oh, and personally, I am interested in how STR shakes out. Let me know how it goes.

I feel your pain. I realize that my car will not be competitive in whatever class it falls in (SSM as far as I can tell).

84 RX-7 GSL-SE 13b Streetport, megasquirt, full catless exhaust, coilovers and will soon have a Rack and Pinion.

Locally that puts me up against the like of Toms Turbo Miata which is now sporting 275 Hoosiers, S2000s, Corvettes, etc. Nationally that has me against 3rd gen RX-7s (one with a 20B), MR2, a Ferrari, 911, Corvettes and Vipers. I show up at the autocross and look at cars that I will personally try to beat. I try to better my time each run, compare my times to other cars from both my class and others then go home. Sometimes I get into a good match timewise with another car (regardless of class) and I get a little competitive but otherwise I just try to miss the cones and beat my best time. Then I go home and not really think about it til next time.

Last weekend I ran the Azenis because I was too lazy to change over to the R-Comps and spend the time sliding around cones and driving way to aggresively to be fast. I had a blast. I would have totally won the drift class and I didn't knock over any of the cones. Looking at the results I think I was the third or fourth fastest person not running R-Comps. I was less than two seconds behind Scott in his Type R on Kumho slicks. That was good enough for me. Next time I will change over to the NT01s so Scott can beat me badly and I won't have any excuses or delusions of grandeur.

The point of this rambling post?

Consider what your goal is first. Do you want to win? Be a underdog and take the hard road? Or mod the car the way you want and let the cards fall where they may.

My goal is to have fun (which I've been doing) but also do well. I have a few top-half-of-the-fields, and even a class win against a Miata. What's driving all of this is the last autocross (non-SCCA) I did I actually held FTD on the 3rd run. The course had a really tight section that other cars had to slow way down for. My car was able to full-throttle through it and lay down times much faster than usual. That ticket is the proudest moment of my autocross career so far.

I often find myself looking at comparable cars (260Z, 300ZX Turbo Wedge, E30) but then I get depressed when a Neon SXT whips my butt. I want to be a little more competitive overall, but I think I really just want to be in a class where people show up more than a few times. John is running into the same thing in STU. It's nice to know how you're doing against cars that are prepped the same way, even if they have more power/etc to start with.

maroon,

I still think you're nuts, but I like the car

CSP is a pretty active class and there is plenty of info about prepping your car for it. First gen RX-7s fit pretty nicely in there and can be regionally competitive a national trophy would certainly take some doing though. Pesky pesky miatas.

Here is a the 1997 3rd place CSP car for sale.

http://webpages.charter.net/slowautoxr/slowautoxr/CSP%20RX-7%20for%20sale.htm

People worry about having the "right" car because throwing money at a problem is much easier than improving your skills. Go. have. fun.

You're preaching to the choir here. I drive a Neon in Street Modified. Talk about out-classed! I finish mid-pack regionally, and diffle at the Nats.

But it's fun, which is the whole point.

I run a VW Corrado in ST (the class formerly known as STS) here in Atlanta Region. Tim & Amy Smith run here, in the Civic that won the Nats. I run on full tread street tires (Toyo Proxes 4), and I really don't consider myself that proficient at autocross (I'm an old ex-circuit racer, and have a lot to learn).

Weird thing is...when I give somebody who can actually drive a ride, they always make comments like "..dude, your tires are the only thing holding you back!.." And on the grid, people just love seeing the car. Our autocrosses are the only place I've been recently where people actually know WTF it is (which is refreshing in itself after hearing "..hey man, nice Scirocco!.." at the gas pump three times a week..)

I'm not egotistical enough to think that I could ever catch Tim or Amy in this car, but I'm doing better every weekend, and I'm having a boatload of fun just being able to race again, rather than watch. Would I like to do better? Of course. But I'm not going to spend cubic dollars to do it. Just like when I was circuit racing, when you improve enough to beat people spending more money than you are, it's a very rewarding sport.

Just my two cents..

Having a car that is outclassed is GREAT!

When you win, it's all 'bout the mad driving skills yo!

When you lose, it's because the car was outclassed.

Shawn

The way I figure, autocrossing represents about five minutes of driving time, once every two or three weeks.
Driving on the street represents, well, all the rest of the time. With that in mind I like to have a car that's fun everywhere regardless of whether it's competitive under a strict set of rules that change every year anyway. No H-stock econoboxes for me.

We approach it from several different levels here at GRM. Some of us really don't care that much about competitiveness and prefer to go against the grain. Others are pinheads (myself included) and like to find all that picky stuff that makes a car fast.

Here are two gross generalizations:

Tom enjoyed driving to Nats and competing in a SSM car that was his daily driver--but hopelessly outclassed. He likes to beat fast cars.

I, on the otherhand, like to bring the proper tools to the garage and tend to find the car for the class. Given an equal playing field, I like to beat fast drivers.

Different strokes...

Jay wrote: The way I figure, autocrossing represents about five minutes of driving time, once every two or three weeks. Driving on the street represents, well, all the rest of the time. With that in mind I like to have a car that's fun everywhere regardless of whether it's competitive under a strict set of rules that change every year anyway. No

Perfect.

I prefer to bring a car that I can have fun in, regardless of class or finishing position.

Everyone who was at the AROC event when I ran the Mazda 929 knows how much fun I had in the 4 door rock star on 16" Nissan 300Z wheels. And half the Detroit Region SCCA rallycrossers are still laughing because of a saturday with an XR4Ti and Joey48842 calmly warning me that he had never been in a rollover accident as we are exiting a big nasty slide too fast.

Who cares where you finish. Beat yourself every run and learn the craft.

THEN go after Per ;)

Since I run a 36 year old Alfa in DSP or our equivallent of SM, I totally relate.

Eric

FOUL! If I recall you build your courses by running that same Alfa flat out around a parking lot THEN stick out cones around your tire marks!

Race what you like. There's no sense in having a car you hate, no matter how fast it may be.

Junkyard_Dog wrote: Class schmass. If its only fun in a parking lot and all but useless anywhere else then whats the point?

You just nailed my way of thinking, I turn up in a car and ask them what class does it fit in.

I prefer to bring a car that I can have fun in

A_MEN.

I'm in the same situation. I build the cars I know best or got the best deal on at the time. My Jetta is classed in EP and with the SCCA club I occasionally run with, I'm the only one in EP which is very unappealing as far as competition goes.

Like you I suspect, my car generates a lot of interest, strange to me. It's also almost the oldest car there as a 1986 model, even more weird. It's fun to beat so many other late model cars and I really suck as a driver. I'm considering a car change as well after the Challenge, I want to be more competitive and have more people to run against. Sounds like I'm somewhere in between.

Good Luck!