Perhaps it's not the RTV causing the issue on the 22+ Twins?

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

I once considered one of the new twins as my daily driver and I'm glad I didn't jump on the bandwagon. Subaru engines as usual, are always incapable of doing anything but cruising on highways. On the bright side, there are rumors that the refresh of the Toyota GR86 will use a Toyota sourced engine. Here's to hoping its a GR Yaris/Corolla engine. That would be sick.

There are no credible sources for this, it's just whiny highway racers who think it's not fast enough but can't afford a Supra. Every year since 2012 when the first gen was released someone says, "oooohhhh next year it will have a turbo."

It won't.

z31maniac said:

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

I once considered one of the new twins as my daily driver and I'm glad I didn't jump on the bandwagon. Subaru engines as usual, are always incapable of doing anything but cruising on highways. On the bright side, there are rumors that the refresh of the Toyota GR86 will use a Toyota sourced engine. Here's to hoping its a GR Yaris/Corolla engine. That would be sick.

There are no credible sources for this, it's just whiny highway racers who think it's not fast enough but can't afford a Supra. Every year since 2012 when the first gen was released someone says, "oooohhhh next year it will have a turbo."

It won't.

Yeah there's absolutely zero chance of that. More likely Subaru gets their E36 M3 together and fixes their engine...but we know that's not happening either.

Byrneon27 said:

z31maniac said:

adam525i said:

Byrneon27 said:

Patientzero said:

I really want one of these cars.  A K24 seems like a no-brainer easy fix after making sure the pickup isn't clogged.

 

I got your back. 

Yes, because K24's don't have any oil pickup problems with a stock pan...

Not to mention, unless you can do all the fab and such, a K24 swap kit for the 1st gen is $10k. TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS just for the swap parts, and then you still have to get the engine. 

https://kpower.industries/products/complete-kpower-86-conversion-package

Some of y'all really struggle with the playful trash talking... That said $10,000 to not have a piece of E36 M3 allergic to horsepower and good times Subaru engine in my car is chump change 

The swap kit comes with a commonly leaky but excellently baffled pan. The major K oiling problem is the pan sloshing into the timing  cover a problem significantly reduced if not eliminated when the engine is mounted in a longitudinal application. 

I'm assuming horizontally opposed engines have oil drain back (back to the pan not back to the earth it's an important distinction) problems. Changes a 5/8 hose from the bottom of the valve covers to the crankcase is the solution? 

The above video and common sense determines that oil starvation is the problem, where the oil is and why it's not around the pick up is the question that needs answered 

Struggle? Nah. 

Buying a $32k car and then spending $15k+ to engine swap it........that's just..... And then you still need suspension, wheels/tires, brakes, etc. Building a $65k+ 2nd gen for an HPDE car seems silly.  I'm confident it will get figured out and when it does, Delicious Tuning has already shown intake/header/exhaust/E85 will make nearly 250whp out of the FA24. 

Buying a salvage title 1st gen to build a K-swapped track car makes sense though.

Terry Fair is doing some more analysis/testing. He's had a tomei oil pan baffle from the beginning with their 2nd gen.

All flat engines fight centripetal forces in high g cornering.  This is partly engine architecture and maybe silicon.  

adam525i said:

Byrneon27 said:

Patientzero said:

I really want one of these cars.  A K24 seems like a no-brainer easy fix after making sure the pickup isn't clogged.

 

I got your back. 

Yes, because K24's don't have any oil pickup problems with a stock pan...

About the K24, it's when oil sloshes toward the timing gear and chain, which effectively "conveyers" the oil up out of the pan and into the head. In a long enough turn, it lifts enough oil out of the pan that it becomes a problem. I wonder if that's what's happening here. With a flat four, I've always wondered what happens when oil sloshes high enough that it tries flowing into the bottom of the cylinder bores. Of course, the pistons are there, and they could beat a lot of air into the oil, turning it into a milkshake. Oil + air is a bad mix for bearings, but I'm just theorizing on that second part.

dps214 said:

z31maniac said:

There are no credible sources for this, it's just whiny highway racers who think it's not fast enough but can't afford a Supra. Every year since 2012 when the first gen was released someone says, "oooohhhh next year it will have a turbo."

It won't.

Yeah there's absolutely zero chance of that. More likely Subaru gets their E36 M3 together and fixes their engine...but we know that's not happening either.

Subaru has definitely been half-assing the required track-survivability fixes (releasing the FA24 still with no baffle and an oil-water cooler that only slightly mitigates the crazy-high oil temps), but it seems like a baffle with the right design could solve this issue. Anyone who takes any flat engine on track without a baffle is taking a huge gamble anyway.

Well, at the extreme, taking any OEM car on-track can be bad news. I watched a late model BMW 750 on the skid pad destroy its engine due to oil starvation...

GameboyRMH said:

dps214 said:

z31maniac said:

There are no credible sources for this, it's just whiny highway racers who think it's not fast enough but can't afford a Supra. Every year since 2012 when the first gen was released someone says, "oooohhhh next year it will have a turbo."

It won't.

Yeah there's absolutely zero chance of that. More likely Subaru gets their E36 M3 together and fixes their engine...but we know that's not happening either.

Subaru has definitely been half-assing the required track-survivability fixes (releasing the FA24 still with no baffle and an oil-water cooler that only slightly mitigates the crazy-high oil temps), but it seems like a baffle with the right design could solve this issue. Anyone who takes any flat engine on track without a baffle is taking a huge gamble anyway.

First gen didn't even have the cheezy oil-water cooler. But needing a proper oil cooler for track work is something that's been known since right after the first gens were released. Most modern cars do. 

As a Gen2  GR86 owner I am following the developments with interest.   Especially now that my car is approaching 18,000 miles.   I don't plan to use it on the track, but I do enjoy hammering down on interstate ramps, which tend to be right-handers.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

All flat engines fight centripetal forces in high g cornering.  This is partly engine architecture and maybe silicon.  

Porsche?

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

All flat engines fight centripetal forces in high g cornering.  This is partly engine architecture and maybe silicon.  

Porsche?

Also affected, but they tend to address the issue with baffles or even dry sumps from the factory. I hear some of their engines have been found to have more oil capacity in one head than in the sump...

So far as I know, most modern engines seem to have the temperature issues on track. Power density plus tight tolerances putting a lot of shear-induced heat into the oil will do that, and the turbo stuff is even worse in that regard. BMW M cars are a great example, a buddy just had a new M3 on track and got temperature warnings 15 minutes into a session, which really bummed him out. I think that's also the nature of the beast with simulation/computer design - it is much easier to reduce cost designing right on the hairy edge than it used to be, and for 99% of users, that water/oil cooler will do just fine. 

kb58 said:

adam525i said:

Byrneon27 said:

Patientzero said:

I really want one of these cars.  A K24 seems like a no-brainer easy fix after making sure the pickup isn't clogged.

 

I got your back. 

Yes, because K24's don't have any oil pickup problems with a stock pan...

About the K24, it's when oil sloshes toward the timing gear and chain, which effectively "conveyers" the oil up out of the pan and into the head. In a long enough turn, it lifts enough oil out of the pan that it becomes a problem. I wonder if that's what's happening here. With a flat four, I've always wondered what happens when oil sloshes high enough that it tries flowing into the bottom of the cylinder bores. Of course, the pistons are there, and they could beat a lot of air into the oil, turning it into a milkshake. Oil + air is a bad mix for bearings, but I'm just theorizing on that second part.

The timing cover is pretty open, any oil slung "up" when it sloshes to the left will go back to the middle.... unless it gets trapped in the valve cover.  You may be on to something. 

Oil sloshing to the right will be slung "down", thus not an issue.

Also, score one more point for timing belts' technical superiority 

GameboyRMH said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

All flat engines fight centripetal forces in high g cornering.  This is partly engine architecture and maybe silicon.  

Porsche?

Also affected, but they tend to address the issue with baffles or even dry sumps from the factory. I hear some of their engines have been found to have more oil capacity in one head than in the sump...

That is to be expected with the aircooled models, which relied heavily on oil cooling of the heads, but 928s were bad to pump the oil out of the sump until the pickup was sucking wind.

gearheadE30 said:

So far as I know, most modern engines seem to have the temperature issues on track. Power density plus tight tolerances putting a lot of shear-induced heat into the oil will do that, and the turbo stuff is even worse in that regard. BMW M cars are a great example, a buddy just had a new M3 on track and got temperature warnings 15 minutes into a session, which really bummed him out. I think that's also the nature of the beast with simulation/computer design - it is much easier to reduce cost designing right on the hairy edge than it used to be, and for 99% of users, that water/oil cooler will do just fine. 

 

 

This is partly because modern engines have a higher operating temperature than they did 30 years ago, because it's more efficient. 

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

All flat engines fight centripetal forces in high g cornering.  This is partly engine architecture and maybe silicon.  

Porsche?

They have more than $3 to spend on designing and building an engine. Once they went away from full dry sumps it did take them a decade and change to fully sort it out though (but Subaru has been building basically the same engine since at least the 90s). The solution is a scavenge pump in each corner of the head and 8-10 quarts of oil. Early engines had the capacity but fewer or no scavenge pumps and still had issues, though mostly only on track with race tires. Engine in the middle/rear means there's less stuff under the engine to need to avoid with the oil pan which helps them out.

A Porsche guy once told me his 911 had seven oil pumps! Not sure if that's true, but that would probably help. 

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

All flat engines fight centripetal forces in high g cornering.  This is partly engine architecture and maybe silicon.  

Porsche?

The 9A1 (997/987) engines have scavenge pumps in each head to prevent this issue. I've heard that the earlier GT models have huge dry sumps (12 qt) for the same reason.

Edit: I see that dps214 beat me to it.

z31maniac said:

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

I once considered one of the new twins as my daily driver and I'm glad I didn't jump on the bandwagon. Subaru engines as usual, are always incapable of doing anything but cruising on highways. On the bright side, there are rumors that the refresh of the Toyota GR86 will use a Toyota sourced engine. Here's to hoping its a GR Yaris/Corolla engine. That would be sick.

There are no credible sources for this, it's just whiny highway racers who think it's not fast enough but can't afford a Supra. Every year since 2012 when the first gen was released someone says, "oooohhhh next year it will have a turbo."

It won't.

I mean, I don't really know or care if it has more power or its turbo, but a Toyota sourced engine gives me more confidence in reliability is all.

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

z31maniac said:

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

I once considered one of the new twins as my daily driver and I'm glad I didn't jump on the bandwagon. Subaru engines as usual, are always incapable of doing anything but cruising on highways. On the bright side, there are rumors that the refresh of the Toyota GR86 will use a Toyota sourced engine. Here's to hoping its a GR Yaris/Corolla engine. That would be sick.

There are no credible sources for this, it's just whiny highway racers who think it's not fast enough but can't afford a Supra. Every year since 2012 when the first gen was released someone says, "oooohhhh next year it will have a turbo."

It won't.

I mean, I don't really know or care if it has more power or its turbo, but a Toyota sourced engine gives me more confidence in reliability is all.

I think it's VASTLY overblown when you see how many have blown up vs how many been sold. We have a couple handfuls of confirmed failures to nearly 20k, 2022-2023 GR86/BRZ's sold. 

z31maniac said:

gearheadE30 said:

So far as I know, most modern engines seem to have the temperature issues on track. Power density plus tight tolerances putting a lot of shear-induced heat into the oil will do that, and the turbo stuff is even worse in that regard. BMW M cars are a great example, a buddy just had a new M3 on track and got temperature warnings 15 minutes into a session, which really bummed him out. I think that's also the nature of the beast with simulation/computer design - it is much easier to reduce cost designing right on the hairy edge than it used to be, and for 99% of users, that water/oil cooler will do just fine. 

 

 

This is partly because modern engines have a higher operating temperature than they did 30 years ago, because it's more efficient. 

 

I do not know about the M3, but lesser modern BMWs have a thermostat opening point of, IIRC, 233F.

Hotter temperatures are not only more efficient for the engine, but also make the cooling system more efficient, as you can have a smaller radiator to remove the same amount of BTUs when the temperature delta to the outside world is 150F instead of, say, 110F.  And there will be less BTUs to remove since you're losing less combustion heat to the coolant thanks to the higher coolant temps.

Doesn't give you much leeway, as you point out.

z31maniac said:

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

z31maniac said:

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

I once considered one of the new twins as my daily driver and I'm glad I didn't jump on the bandwagon. Subaru engines as usual, are always incapable of doing anything but cruising on highways. On the bright side, there are rumors that the refresh of the Toyota GR86 will use a Toyota sourced engine. Here's to hoping its a GR Yaris/Corolla engine. That would be sick.

There are no credible sources for this, it's just whiny highway racers who think it's not fast enough but can't afford a Supra. Every year since 2012 when the first gen was released someone says, "oooohhhh next year it will have a turbo."

It won't.

I mean, I don't really know or care if it has more power or its turbo, but a Toyota sourced engine gives me more confidence in reliability is all.

I think it's VASTLY overblown when you see how many have blown up vs how many been sold. We have a couple handfuls of confirmed failures to nearly 20k, 2022-2023 GR86/BRZ's sold. 

 

Exactly my point re: LS engines' failures on track, and other foibles. Chevy was replacing rings (or maybe pistons and rings) for LS6s under warranty for burning oil, and they had moved the acceptable-oil-consumption goalpost to 1qt/200mi. 

One can find any evidence you want to support one's gut feeling 

Toyota engines are known for burning oil at a remarkably young age, some have the same cam phaser issues as Hondas (just much more expensive to fix), and even before the GR Corolla made it to the US there were reports of GR Yaris engines blowing up on track.

z31maniac said:

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

z31maniac said:

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

I once considered one of the new twins as my daily driver and I'm glad I didn't jump on the bandwagon. Subaru engines as usual, are always incapable of doing anything but cruising on highways. On the bright side, there are rumors that the refresh of the Toyota GR86 will use a Toyota sourced engine. Here's to hoping its a GR Yaris/Corolla engine. That would be sick.

There are no credible sources for this, it's just whiny highway racers who think it's not fast enough but can't afford a Supra. Every year since 2012 when the first gen was released someone says, "oooohhhh next year it will have a turbo."

It won't.

I mean, I don't really know or care if it has more power or its turbo, but a Toyota sourced engine gives me more confidence in reliability is all.

I think it's VASTLY overblown when you see how many have blown up vs how many been sold. We have a couple handfuls of confirmed failures to nearly 20k, 2022-2023 GR86/BRZ's sold.

I'm not really sure it's overblown so much as only a small number of them are exposed to the conditions that cause the failures. Also it's much more of a long term effect than short term. Any way you slice it, repeated intermittent oil pressure loss isn't good for bearing durability. We're not going to know the full extent of the issue for another few years probably.

z31maniac said:

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

z31maniac said:

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

I once considered one of the new twins as my daily driver and I'm glad I didn't jump on the bandwagon. Subaru engines as usual, are always incapable of doing anything but cruising on highways. On the bright side, there are rumors that the refresh of the Toyota GR86 will use a Toyota sourced engine. Here's to hoping its a GR Yaris/Corolla engine. That would be sick.

There are no credible sources for this, it's just whiny highway racers who think it's not fast enough but can't afford a Supra. Every year since 2012 when the first gen was released someone says, "oooohhhh next year it will have a turbo."

It won't.

I mean, I don't really know or care if it has more power or its turbo, but a Toyota sourced engine gives me more confidence in reliability is all.

I think it's VASTLY overblown when you see how many have blown up vs how many been sold. We have a couple handfuls of confirmed failures to nearly 20k, 2022-2023 GR86/BRZ's sold. 

 

Understood. I mean, I've sean a lot of Subaru engines (stock STIs, etc) fail on track too. I'm just too used to running junkyard miata/honda motors with 200k miles that seem to last forever and cost pennies to replace. I am currently in the "wait and see" category. I'm just driving my old cars still.

I wonder if anyone at Vermont Sportscar has a fix. Seems they'd be on top of something like this.