1981 Alfa GTV6. Got the radiator, timing belt cover & thermo housing out today. Got the big socket for the crankshaft nut and gave it a slow steady pull..
The engine turned easily, but would only make about 1/2 a revolution before it stopped. Both cams were turning, I didn't see it skip a tooth. I didn't put any more force on it, just in case it's a valve. Can anyone think of what else it might be other than interference?
In reply to friedgreencorrado: When did the engine last run? You got it in neutral, right? Other than that Interference is all I can think of. You are turning it clockwise, correct? If so, time to check the cam timing.
Had the engine been sitting for a long time? If so, there may be corrosion where the rings sat on the piston walls.
Engine's been sitting up for more than 10yr. I was shocked that it turned so easily, I didn't have to add my pipe to the wrench (2ft long 3/4 drive ratchet). I thought if it was cylinder corrosion, it wouldn't move to begin with?
I was tempted to just pull the heads & retime it all, but I've been told if you turn the Alfa V6 crank with the heads off, you'll push the liners out of the block (even on a healthy one).
Yeah, clockwise. I didn't even rock it back & forth because I've heard that can make it skip a tooth.
If it turned 1/2 way, I am thinking skipped belt. Maybe thats why it was parked in the first place! Yes, if you pull the heads you must fashion a hold down for the liners. Easy to do with some tubing and large washers. Pull the valve covers off first and you may be able to tell if the timing is off. I'm thinking its head pulling time, tho. Once you correct the timing, you can do a compression test to check if you have a bent valve, etc.You should be changing the timing belt, the tensioner and water pump, anyway at a minimum.
The cams have obvious marks on them to show where they are supposed to be lined up when the crank pulley is set to the P mark. Try just pulling the cam covers first, and check and see if all the marks line up.
milanoverde wrote: If it turned 1/2 way, I am thinking skipped belt. Maybe thats why it was parked in the first place! Yes, if you pull the heads you must fashion a hold down for the liners. Easy to do with some tubing and large washers. Pull the valve covers off first and you may be able to tell if the timing is off. I'm thinking its head pulling time, tho. Once you correct the timing, you can do a compression test to check if you have a bent valve, etc.You should be changing the timing belt, the tensioner and water pump, anyway at a minimum.
Milano, the thing that breaks my heart is that it stopped short of TDC by about a quarter turn. I thought that if I could get as far as TDC, I could take the valve covers off and check. I do have a shop manual (actually in one of the boxes of parts that came with the car), and now know what marks to look for.
I ordered & received a new belt, a new water pump (actually manufactured by Saleri!), and was talking with someone about a rebuild kit for the tensioner, but didn't buy it because I wanted to see whether or not it was converted to the mecanical one first (it hasn't).
I was thinking about drilling a couple of plates with the head bolt pattern to mount up & hold the liners down, but I've never learned how to cut or weld. I thought briefly that I could use wood, but something that soft would let the liners move a couple of mm. Can you tell me more about the tubing & washers solution? Seriously..I can drill metal much better than I can fabricate it. 
I have an IAP catalogue, I see new liners are still available..but it seems that it's only in a kit with new pistons/rings/etc. for about 700 bucks. And I have no idea what kind of chore it is to install new liners in the block. Not to mention that if I'm going to do that, I'll have to dismantle most of the bottom end as well. I no longer have the tools to do a proper rebuild, if the thing can be saved, I'd rather do that instead.
Travis_K wrote: The cams have obvious marks on them to show where they are supposed to be lined up when the crank pulley is set to the P mark. Try just pulling the cam covers first, and check and see if all the marks line up.
Thanks, Travis..I was actually thinking about that (I wanted to get it to TDC more than I wanted my next breath!!), but the crank stopped about 1/4 turn short of the timing marks. I didn't remove the cam covers because I'd been working on the thing for a couple of hours, and didn't want to spend another 15min looking at something I already pretty much suspected... 
At the moment, I'm hoping milanoverde can share the goods about the trick to hold the liners down, so that I can pull the heads & time everything independantly of each other. Hey, it'll give me an excuse to clean the carbon off the heads, right? 
Interesting that the engine turned over so freely. So the bearings are good, but I doubt you have ANY compression at all.
mad_machine wrote: Interesting that the engine turned over so freely. So the bearings are good, but I doubt you have ANY compression at all.
Well, the plugs are out, and I've had Marvel Mystery Oil soaking in it for a week and a half. Still, I'd rather do the rings than the bearings. I just don't have the tools (especially the measuring tools) to do a proper bottom end rebuild right now.
EDIT: Or the money..I'm sure I'd get it done eventually, but doing that kind of work would make it a multi-year project, instead of a multi-month one.
In reply to friedgreencorrado:
I can't seem to find pics at the moment but it's easy to just use some electrical conduit cut to fit and fender washers to fit over the head studs. Use the head nuts to hold everything down. It's really fairly easy.
My offer for a cheap running engine is still open. Just drop it in and go!
There's a pic of the factory hold down tools in this thread but it should give you an idea of what you need.
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168-1991-1995/48075-cylinder-liner-hold-down-tools.html
I've not done it in a 116 or 119 car, but since you can get the oil pan off, you should be able to change the liners pretty easy. Thing is, unless they have worn out too big, or have split, they don't normally go bad. The worst I've seen otherwise is a small crack at the bottom of the liner- which I think was due to droppage from the PO.
For the hold down too, I, too, like the conduit+ large washer trick. Works like a charm. And really needed- you SHOULD turn the engine over before you put the head on- to make sure that nothing is holding it tight for any reason.
If you do take the liners out, PLEASE make sure that the bottom of the block is SUUUUPPPPEEERRRR clean. From what I can surmise, the #1 cause if head gasekt failure is the liner protruding from the block too much, which does not allow proper compression of the outer part of the gasket.
Another trick is to use a proper epoxy to glue the liner in- and forego the rubber sealer. It both seals better, and stiffens the bottom of the block a little- it's a bigger help on the I4, but no reason that the V6 wouldn't like it.
Good luck with it! Eric
Pull the cams then turn the crank. No worries if all the valve are closed. A pain in the ass yes...but not doing a valve job...priceless...
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Travis_K wrote: The cams have obvious marks on them to show where they are supposed to be lined up when the crank pulley is set to the P mark. Try just pulling the cam covers first, and check and see if all the marks line up.
Travis, that's what I was looking for when I discovered the thing actually turned so easily. I only pulled it a couple of degrees at first, and then decided since it was turning so smoothly, I'd try to get the thing to TDC when it stopped (roughly 1/4 turn from the mark). Can't get it there...
I think I'm going to take the heads off, build the jig the guys are talking about to keep the liners seated, set it all to the marks and put it all back together.
I thought about just finding a used lump to put in, but since it's a project, I'd like to try to save the original engine just because it's a challenge.
"..He tasks me!.."
I contacted Dean at Trailalfa, he says he has the rebuild kit for the old hydraulic tentioner at about $42. I asked him about a head gasket kit as well.
dbgrubbs wrote: In reply to friedgreencorrado: I can't seem to find pics at the moment but it's easy to just use some electrical conduit cut to fit and fender washers to fit over the head studs. Use the head nuts to hold everything down. It's really fairly easy. My offer for a cheap running engine is still open. Just drop it in and go!
db, that's very tempting right now..but I think I'll go as far as I can with this one before doing that (see my reply to Travis). Not to mention that even if I get it running, there's still the brakes to go through, what seems to be 20 meters of fuel & vaccum lines to replace, and the driveshaft to install. It's going to be awhile.
OTOH, lemme know if somebody makes you an offer on that lump...I might just panic and buy it off you just in case...
Remember to keep us posted!
In reply to milanoverde:
Here `tiz...
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/reader-rides/1566/close-but-no-cigar/
And Don, I'm serious about keeping me informed if someone else wants that engine. I'm trying to do this cheaply, but I'd rather spend a little more to get the thing done instead of having to pass it along to someone else in even worse shape than it was when I got it..
Dean at trailalfa hasn't replied to my latest begging for a tensioner rebuild kit (even though I asked about a head gasket set as well), but I've heard it takes him awhile sometimes..
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