CLH wrote: There's a Club Sport sitting on a dealer lot in Bothell, WA should anyone desire to pick one up: http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/ctd/1447164078.html
Can't tell if it's a Club Sport from the listing, although if it doesn't have PS that's the key.
Witness the new 911 Classic Sport. Strip out the weight, jack the price waaay up. The problem is with us: we want inexpensive, simple sports cars but we don't buy them new. Or at least, there's not enough of us buying them new.
My hope is that with new management in Stuttgart they will stop kneecapping the Cayman. Let's have a Cayman GT3!!!
Chysler started this same thing in 1995 with the Neon ACR. It's still the prefered performance model.. Of course, it only weighed 2300#.
So the answers are:
A) They tried it with the Miata Club Sport and it failed. My Response - I think it was bad marketing and poor communication/execution. I would think if there were 2500 of these out there today (and they should have been priced at about $17K to start with) that this would be one of the most sought after cars by people on this board and many others. I would wager that if they just had a sub $20K "entry-level" or "pony" model, they'd have sold them, no need to even give them a fancy nomenclature - they'd still have sold.
B) Honda tried it with The S2K but it didn't work. My Response - they priced it wrong. If you take stuff out of a car to make it lighter - not in a Ferrari/Porsche "make everything out of light-tanium!" way - but actually remove non-essential components to create a true entry-level offering, then it aught to be priced less. Methinks they took some stuff out, then added a body kit and called it a special name to charge more.
C) Now Porsche is trying it. My Response. It's about time!
Well, the car met the criteria listed. Lighter, stripped out, cheaper, under $20k. Of course, now it has to be under $17k :) It's tough when the rules keep changing.
The R package Miata was a race-oriented model as well. Demand was pretty good the first year, but it tapered off and only 47 were made in the fourth year of production because the demand wasn't there.
Why would the Club Sport be sought-after if there were 2500 of them? They don't have any super-trick bits. They're just missing some extras. Any enthusiast can duplicate the car in a few hours starting with a normal 2003 Miata. Like I said, the only hard bit is the manual rack.
docwyte wrote: the problem with the last gen RX7 was it was a steaming pile of manure when it was first released. The car had major teething problems, I remember dealers discounting them from $35k MSRP to $22k and they still couldn't sell them. If you leaned against the car, you dented it. They constantly overheated, etc, etc. One guy had a 10 page list of stuff that had gone wrong with his in something like 6 months of ownership.
That seems odd. I don't doubt their reputation, but after poking around the RX7 Club I hear mostly the opposite; that people who are very thorough in maintenance enjoy decent reliability. You could say the RX7 Club would gloss over faults, but other national clubs seem to be relatively honest to me, ex.) Lotus Esprit Club. I have heard the quip that body shops love them RX7s, though.
OrangeRazor wrote: In reply to ReverendDexter: Dodge could've done that with their "Razor" concept from 2002. And all of a sudden my username makes more sense...
Made sense to me from the start
Snowdoggie wrote: A 914 with a 3.6 swap would be cheaper, lighter and faster.
Agreed. I would like a 986 boxster with a 3.6 swap though.
Snowdoggie said: A 914 with a WRX swap would be cheaper, lighter and faster.
FIXXED!
So then, I assume a 'lightweight Boxster' is geared at fat chicks?
Uh, fellas, Genesis Coupe R-Type... No radio, cruise, wing, sunroof, leather, etc but still gets the Torsen, Brembos, and Track suspension. Cheaper than the Track and Premium 2.0T models...
P71 wrote: Uh, fellas, Genesis Coupe R-Type... No radio, cruise, wing, sunroof, leather, etc but still gets the Torsen, Brembos, and Track suspension. Cheaper than the Track and Premium 2.0T models...
Hyundai Genesis? Pass. For all their work on everything else, it's still has a "funny looking little import" exterior. There's one at the gym and it's goofy looking.
Rangeball wrote: Agreed. I would like a 986 boxster with a 3.6 swap though.
+1
But what I really want is a Cayman with a 3.6 swap.
Or, how about an early Boxster with a 3.4 swap plus a supercharger? Probably get it done for under $25K. Double yum!
David
I'm thinking that much as how the 944 is yesterday's 914, the Cayman/Boxster will be tomorrow's.
karlt_10 wrote:P71 wrote: Cheaper than the Track and Premium 2.0T models...Hyundai Genesis? Pass. For all their work on everything else, it's still has a "funny looking little import" exterior. There's one at the gym and it's goofy looking.
That still doesn't change the fact that it's cheaper and likely has more performance potential at a marginal price than the "normal" models.
Just because you don't like the styling doesn't mean it's not a valid example of a manufacturer trying very hard to market the "stripper" model.
As a few have mentioned, the problem is the quantity of scale. Breaking out a small number of your normal production cars for something special is expensive - no matter how much content you take out of the car.
What we 'want' and what we're willing or can afford to sign on the dotted for are two different things. I 'want' a low-option MINI for w/e fun and as a track toy... but when I start looking at the economics, even a used one would be pretty damn expensive compared to other options (NA Miata, E30, etc).
The problem isn't with the marketing or selling of those vehicles. As this thread proves the motorsports community will do the advertising for you when you have a competition model.
Joe blow who wants to buy a boxster / Miata / S2K likley finds the normal version more then enough to satisfy his cravings for speed. He isn't a good enough driver to make use of more power or less weight , and basically wants a fun car to drive. The notion that you will sell tons and tons of "club racer" cars is skewed by the fact that being into motorsports yourself you think everyone else is. There are far more secretaries and retired couples driving miatas then hardcore autocrossers / track day-ers.
Manufacturing costs also need to be considered. While it seems like the lighter cars should be cheaper / easier to make, they aren't. It requires changes at every level from advertising to production.
Why take out a 1 page ad in car and driver to push the new lightweight version of which you will sell less then 4000 of a year, when you can advertise the normal version that everyone will by? Also the thought that if 'Joe blow" reads the ad for the lightweight racer version without some of the more basic options, he may discount the car as being too harsh without even stepping foot into the showroom. While today's customer has numerous sources he can pull from for information, it doesn't mean he gets it right. I sold Subaru's for 5 years, worked on the ad campaign for the new Challenger and more recently worked as a technical writer for GM. It's staggering how confused a consumer can get when overloaded with information.
While we would like to think that race on Sunday / sell on monday still holds true, it doesn't. Factory produced cars differ far too much from their racing counterparts.
Having had the thrill of autocrossing and street driving my fathers RS America #00001 for nearly 10 years, I can tell you it's a great track / autocross car, and horrid on the street. That "pure" driving sensation wears thin on harsh roads.
When a manufacturer sits down to spec out a car, they do so in a fashion that will sell the most volume. Hence options such as AC / PW , PDL and the rest have become common. The 1% of the buying public that wants the lightweight version is far outweighed by the other 99% that wants cup holders and frosty cool AC.
Show me 1 guy who will put down the cash today for a lightweight car, and I will show you 100 middle aged men who will buy the normal one.
You could also make the argument that technological advances have made light weight less of a concern then it used to be.
Well I'm not going to argue with Keith because he probably knows every nut, bolt and lock washer better than just about any one, but I will say this. There are probably 2-3 kinds of people that will buy a performance car:
A) The fat, happy, lazy, etc. person who gets their miata/boxter/etc with all the fixins and seriously considers getting it with an automatic - or actually does so. Chances are this is going to be a weekend/sunny day car anyway. Advertise to these people as you are right, they are probably 80-90% of the market.
B) Folks are buying these as daily drivers and are somewhat of an enthusiast or someone who can't afford/has enough space/etc to keep two cars and wants a double-duty car that gets them too and from work during the 9-5 and they can track/autox on the weekends if they wish. Chances are these folks will eventually filter into the former or latter category.
C) The true/borderline committed enthusiast who is going to drive it only on the weekends, probably to and from whatever event they are participating in, and maybe on the occassional club run to the local tech session, clam shack or coffee house. Chances are they are going to buy a second hand car unless they can afford to buy new, and if they get hooked, are going to start yoinking stuff out to be competitive.
All I'm saying is that there should be some base starting point like there used to be in the good old days. A base model that doesn't have the bells and whistles, body kits and tupperware, that someone who is looking to get into a performance car at the lowest price point possible can still do. The fact that not having all the baubles and bolt-ons save 250 pounds is a bonus.
I see no reason in this day and age why you shouldn't be able to get into a base model, stripped down miata for right around $20K. A Boxster for around $40-45K.
And if the model doesn't work, why is the Elise such a popular car?
I'd bet that if there was a lightweight, stripped down, decent looking car that cost around $20k (or less) and had performance half as good as the Elise (0-60 in ~6 seconds, skidpad numbers in the .90+G area, 50-50 weight dist., 2300 lbs or better, ~150 hp or better, etc.), they'd get sold right quick. These don't seem like impossible numbers to me.
When I bought my Mustang, you could get a low spec GT (cloth, no alarms, 5 spd, basic cd player) for $23k that would 0-60 in 5.5 and pull .9 on the skid with good street tires.
So...instead of offering stripper versions that sit on lots unsold, why not offer deletion packages that drop the price? Run them as special orders because anyone that specific is propbably willing to wait 4-6 weeks for their car
If you could order a Cooper S, lose the power heated seats, a/c, traction control, sunroof, etc etc etc
and drop it from $24k to $19k . Sounds like a good plan to me.
I know this is slightly off-topic, but what about rumored Gen. coupe R-spec? Still now hard news about those
ultraclyde wrote: When I bought my Mustang, you could get a low spec GT (cloth, no alarms, 5 spd, basic cd player) for $23k that would 0-60 in 5.5 and pull .9 on the skid with good street tires. So...instead of offering stripper versions that sit on lots unsold, why not offer deletion packages that drop the price? Run them as special orders because anyone that specific is propbably willing to wait 4-6 weeks for their car If you could order a Cooper S, lose the power heated seats, a/c, traction control, sunroof, etc etc etc and drop it from $24k to $19k . Sounds like a good plan to me.
Now we're cooking.
You guys don't get it, it's not as easy as pulling stuff out and sending it to the dealer.
Delete AC is easy you say?
Well if 100% of vehicles have it to start with, you now have to design, release, tool, test, build, ship and install a E36 M3 load of stuff. Different belt, possibly different brkts, different wiring loom, blanking plugs for the dash etc etc.
You also need to update order guides, brochures, manuals, service records etc.
You've also changed engine load so you need to recalibrate with the testing that entails
Did it change the weight class? Does that affect CAFE standards? Is there government testing required?
You may think of getting rid of stuff as free or saving money, but in reality it costs $$'s
I just had a look at the Mazda website. The difference between a base spec Miata and a Grand Touring (neither is PRHT) is only 31lb's. That's not a lot and even a base Miata has AC. So that AC delete will cost hundreds of thousands to do for a pay back of what? 50 cars sitting unsold on the dealer lots for over a year.
99% of the people who want a stripped out race car want to buy it for pennies on the $ used, or if they can afford to buy new as a toy they tend to be looking at different class of car to start with.
Other markets do get the stripper MINIs. For example, the MINI First in the UK advertises an on-the-road price of £10950. The MINI Cooper is advertised at £13715. Assuming their Cooper is the same as our $18800 Cooper (seriously, that's the MSRP base price), that means the First would have an MSRP of $15,010. Tell your MINI dealer you want one.
I've purchased one new car in my life, a 2000 Golf. In theory, you could buy one without AC. But in reality, you couldn't.
Did you know that the current Miata, big wheels, 6-speaker CD player, power windows, airbags out the wazoo etc is cheaper than the original 1990 base model with no radio and steel wheels? $23,560 in 2009 dollars is $13,500 in 1989 dollars, and the original base price was $13,800.
Carrera4 said: I'd bet that if there was a lightweight, stripped down, decent looking car that cost around $20k (or less) and had performance half as good as the Elise (0-60 in ~6 seconds, skidpad numbers in the .90+G area, 50-50 weight dist., 2300 lbs or better, ~150 hp or better, etc.), they'd get sold right quick. These don't seem like impossible numbers to me.
They're not impossible at all. Set the Wayback Machine to 2005, and you described the Mazdaspeed Miata. The only difference is that car weighed 2500 lbs instead of 2300. It was a fairly slow seller, probably because a test drive highlighted their faults more than their abilities and because the Neon STR4 for sale across the street would blow its doors off in a straight line.
A/C, PW, PDL & P/S are standard on the MINI, but the sunroof and heated seats are optional.
A/C is standard on US-spec cars since it would cost to much to make it optional... MINI finally realized this with the MFSW for 2010.
Keith wrote: Other markets do get the stripper MINIs. For example, the MINI First in the UK advertises an on-the-road price of £10950. The MINI Cooper is advertised at £13715. Assuming their Cooper is the same as our $18800 Cooper (seriously, that's the MSRP base price), that means the First would have an MSRP of $15,010. Tell your MINI dealer you want one.
Good point Keith but that £13715 Cooper is $22,766 at today's exchange rate. Over here the Cooper is the entry level low margin vehicle where over there it's the mid/upper level with higher margins. The chances are they couldn't afford to sell the First over here for $15,010, not forgetting that it hasn't been subjected to EPA/CAFE yet.
Also I doubt the average buyer would accept that level of performance in a street vehicle (1.4l 75hp) and how many enthusiasts would pay for less when crippled by that engine and would instead step up to the Cooper, isn't the Cooper already an HS car? You can't class lower than that today.
You'll need to log in to post.
