Project Kapra: How feasible is this?

Prepare yourself, this is going to be a long post. Hopefully I'll write colorfully enough, and include enough pictures, to keep your attention to the end. If not, I'll recap at the bottom with a handful of questions.

Keep in mind, I'm a part-time writer with an advertising degree, not an engineer. If it's a stupid idea, please tell me why it's a stupid idea. I couldn't love GRM or the forum more, but...

For the time being, it would probably be a one-off for personal use, but I have reason to believe that a very small series production of these would sell. Perhaps two or three cars per year? If I want one, someone else probably would, too, right?

Section 1 - Inspiration

I have a strange pull to the 'cars of yesteryear', specifically the 1-off racing specials built by So-Cal speed shops on a wing, a prayer, parts laying around, and practically zero budget. This idea was inspired about a year ago when I was at the Monterey historics looking at some small, lightweight, sport runabouts. Maser Birdcages, and Porsche spyders provided the visual stimuli, but I was drawn to the simplicity of the Denzel 1500s, and was reminded of Chris Runge's Frankfurt Flyer (as well as the original Glocklers).

I wanted to build something that was lightweight, simple, and easy to work on with a reasonable tool kit. Something that would be live-able for street use (with a lot of compromise), but most at home on the track. It wouldn't be the fastest thing in the world, but it would certainly be nimble, and punch well above its weight class. I wanted something that would have been feasible to build in your garage, assuming you were a WWII fighter plane mechanic returning home and needing an adrenaline fix.

Section 2 - The car

For the time being, I've decided to call the project "Kapra". I was looking for a name that meant 'agile, yet durable', and could think of no better mascot than the mountain goat. Being that the car will be built on a simplistic German platform, I went with a German name. Once together, should run pretty much forever (maybe cockroach would have been a better name?)

The “backbone” of the Kapra would be a standard Volkswagen Type 1 chassis stripped of all bodywork. From this base, I would construct a small diameter tube-frame that is both structurally integral, and frames the bodywork. Low, light, and lithe, the car wouldn't make use of doors, windows, heavy adjustable seats, or other extraneous luxuries.

Using the frame as a keystone, the bodywork would then be formed using hardened dacron fabric (the stuff they make bi-plane wings out of). With an aerodynamic shape, inspired by aircraft skin of the day, the Kapra’s bodywork will continue the lightweight ethos evident elsewhere in the project. With a lightweight chassis and body, the car can properly utilize it’s power, corner holding, and braking ability to fullest potential.

Like the rest of the car, the interior would be quite spartan. No carpeting, a limited selection of switches and knobs, but a full bevvy of simple mechanical gauges to keep an eye on things. Options for seating could include formed-sheet aluminum, a leather or vinyl 'vintage-style' sport bucket, or a seat crafted out of rattan wicker (Porsche used these for the navigators seats in 550 spyders for the Carrera Panamericana, and they're super cool, though perhaps not the safest. Probably wouldn't use wicker, but it sounds super cool.)

Section 3 - Powertrain

Ideally, the Kapra would be equipped with a slightly warmed over 1600cc version of the Porsche 902 engine found in 1965-1969 912 models. From the factory, this engine provided an economical and simple way to achieve 90 horsepower. A fresh rebuild and a few simple modifications could easily have our engines producing around 105 horsepower. Just as easily (and maybe less expensively), a hotted up VW engine could provide the motivation. I'm a Porsche nut, though, and will later discuss why I wanted to go that route.

Using an aircooled engine provides a lightweight and relatively economical way to provide decent power for a lightweight car. Without any radiators, piping, or coolant, the car has one fewer packaging restraint to work around, and can be built that much leaner.

Section 4 - Kapra Advantages

A - Lightweight

The Kapra should be able to come in around 1200 pounds. When coupled with a 105 horsepower engine, the car would provide an 11.4:1 pound-to-horsepower ratio, putting it on par with 550 and Lotus 7 competition. While not as fast to accelerate as a Cobra kit, it could theoretically win out in the corners with a better balanced chassis and lighter weight. Additionally, the car would be very good on brakes, and not necessarily need a large and heavy braking system to generate the same stopping distances. Even on lightly enlarged brakes, the tires would certainly be the limiting factor.

B - Simplicity

With the simplicity provided here, you are connected directly to the road through the steering wheel, the gear lever, and the seat of your pants.

Predictable grip, an almost unprecedented level of driver involvement, and a feeling that a standard street car simply cannot provide.

C - 'Old World Feel'

With the prices of vintage sports cars skyrocketing, this could be the way for the "everyman" to experience the feel of a vintage race car without the hundreds of thousands of dollars outlay. The Kapra is an old generation car for a new generation of enthusiast drivers.

In the 1950s, there was a hardened and more dedicated sports car fan base, using their sporting machines to drive to the track, compete in events, then drive home. My aim is to recreate that type of car once again.

The Kapra is a return to the roots of sports car racing. The feel of the wind, and the feel of the road through the steering wheel can return in an age of electronic this and airbag that. The Kapra is more than a car to me, it is a time machine.

[SUPER BOLD]Things from this point forward are all things I've concluded about a "production" line of cars. I am not assuming that I will go into production, but I have daydreamed about it. This is the results of my daydreams, and nothing more. I don't currently have the financial backing to attempt such a thing, but it is occasionally nice to think about![/SUPER BOLD]

Section 5 - Competitive analysis.

A - Fiberglass 550 Replica

Several companies are currently producing a 550 Spyder replica. As values of originals crest the 3.5 million dollar mark, having the look and feel of the original is desirable.

Generally priced above $30,000, Spyder kits hold their value well, with 10 year old Beck Spyders still selling in the high twenties. There always seem to be one or two used for sale, but prices don’t falter.

B - Lotus 7 Clones

With several options available for Lotus Super 7 clones, this is another popular competitor. With many kits built on Miata drivetrains, the new-build sevens are lively, sporty, and reliable.

In part, it is the success of Lotus 7 clone companies like Caterham and Westfield built solely on the back of this kit, that assure me of a demand for a lightweight, simple, and sporty car with an open top and a vintage feel.

C - "kit" Cobras

Cobra kits are an interesting enigma. Some kits are very well built and nearly imperceptible from the originals, while others are cheaply assembled home-builds on “Fox” Mustang chassis. It's hard to beat the performance-per-dollar of a fox-based Cobra, but it is a wholly different experience from what the Kapra would offer.

D - Exomotive Exocet

I hold the Exocet in pretty high regard. Again, built on a Miata drivetrain, the Exocet provides a very nimble, but very modern feeling vehicle. With all Exocet being home built and starting at $6,000, the car will provide an Ariel Atom experience for a fraction of the price. While the project I am imagining would provide a distinctly vintage feel, there are many similarities among them, including an exoskeletal frame and minimal bodywork.

IF I were eventually to make this into a production project, I would probably offer the car in three different forms.

Version 1. Kapra Strasse (A street-able car)

It will offer fully integrated and functional turn signals, head and tail lamps, two seats, and a full width windscreen. A choice of drum or disc brakes will be offered, and a slightly less aggressive suspension setting with a higher ride height can be specified. A capable car for the street that would not be out of place on the race track.

Uses a refurbished Volkswagen Beetle floor pan with a Beetle VIN. I'm not 100% up on the legality of this, as it's all a pipe-dream right now, but being that the pan of the car and the VIN are retained, I would think this would simply be a HIGHLY modified beetle, an be treated in a similar fashion to a Meyers Manx.

Version 2. Kapra Streke (Race track only track day car)

his version of the car will not be street legal, and would be difficult to have registered. No exterior lighting will be provided, but can be optioned for endurance and night racing. Will include a wider array of gauges, or a digital display, if preferred. Drum brakes are not optioned for Streke versions. No VIN and no title are provided. Uses a brand new Volkswagen Beetle floor pan, as there remain a half-decent supply of New-Old-Stock pans in Mexico. One or two a year shouldn't be extraordinarily difficult to source.

Version 3. Kapra Volks ("For the people")

provided either as a kit for home assembly, or as a “factory assembled” kit using an existing Volkswagen Beetle. This will be completely customizable, as to what the customer desires. An entry level kit will not include any drivetrain, suspension, or brake upgrade components.

Again, I'm not sure any of this is feasible, but I would think that the turn-key cars would be salable in the mid-to-upper 20s, and a 'Volks' kit could be offered at around $6000.

Okay, question time -

1. How feasible is this for a one-off build? Should be pretty simple, right?
2. How far off are my assumptions? Am I missing something?
3. How stupid am I for wanting such a thing?
4. Do you think anyone would want to buy a car like this if I were to offer to build them?
5. I would probably have to outsource the cage welding, the bodywork, and the paint, but could reasonably handle all of the disassembly and re-assembly work myself if need be. Do my price expectations seem off the wall?
6. Anyone good at vehicle design? I'm trying to come up with a mock-up based on known dimensions, but I'm incapable of drawing anything beyond a stick figure or those little birds that look like an elongated letter 'm'.
7. What about that kickstarter/indiegogo/smallknot thing?

Have at me, ya heathens!

I have often thought about building a tube frame using a VW pan as a base.

Just know, you are not really re-inveting the wheel- many kit cars were bug based- from the Bradley GT to some Alfa and Buggati sort of re-bodies. In terms of Porsches, there were even quite a few 356 replicas that were VW based (not just the 550's).

if I were you, I would shoot for more a 356 like car than anything else. they are already pretty spartan, so being more or less of that is pretty easy. They are already pretty VW based. And it's a good looking car- the lines of a car like that would look CORRECT as a rear-engined car. the alfa and buggatti kits look bad, since they have the space for a rear engine.

So look up odd variants of 356's, including some that have some bug features- there was a hill climb car featured on Chasing Classic Cars that was interesting looking.

In terms of what they are- check out how states deal with VW based kit cars. There are a TON of them out there- should not be too hard.

Yep, you've just described any number of existing VW kit cars.

A few notes.

A rebodied VW is not a heavily modified Beetle in most states and needs to have an assigned VIN. Yes you can and many people do get away with registering it as a beetle, in NJ it's illegal, as well as many other states. Its also cause for your insurance company to deny any claims.

The days of "cheap old VWs" are quickly falling behind us so easy, cheap donor chassis' are not readily available like they once were. You could look at a full reproduction chassis which takes the VW parts like most dune buggies are using now.

Building a car for sale is not as easy as building a car and selling it. Not as a commercial venture, you would run into many legalities of becoming an automotive manufacturer. It will be slightly simpler as a kit but not completely.

I like the idea, but if I'm going to all the trouble of building a kit, I dang sure wouldn't want drum brakes. Also I don't get the engine choice. It seems like you are going for a lower end, and the engines you chose don't offer much bang for the buck. I get it fits the theme, but VW motors (much less porsche) are hardly a performance bargain.

also, i'd be very surprised if you could get the weight that low.

My fiat is at 1475 lbs. absolutely stripped down, very little steel left, fiberglass hood and trunk, and it is MUCH smaller than a beetle.

wheelbase wheelbase fiat 79.8 vw 94.5 width fiat60.6 vw 59.1 length fiat 148.9 vw 160

alfadriver wrote: Just know, you are not really re-inveting the wheel- many kit cars were bug based- from the Bradley GT to some Alfa and Buggati sort of re-bodies. In terms of Porsches, there were even quite a few 356 replicas that were VW based (not just the 550's). if I were you, I would shoot for more a 356 like car than anything else. they are already pretty spartan, so being more or less of that is pretty easy. They are already pretty VW based. And it's a good looking car- the lines of a car like that would look CORRECT as a rear-engined car. the alfa and buggatti kits look bad, since they have the space for a rear engine.

I know that it isn't a brand new idea, but there are enough differences to make it unique, I think.

Bradley GTs and the like, IMHO, look like garbage. I'm not looking to do a replica, because I think replicas are a cop out. A 356 body just doesn't give me the unique "custom hot rod" look I want. Something like THIS would be similar to what I want.

I don't want anything that looks like anything else. It has to be stylish, unique, and absolutely bonkers.

100 hp and 12:1 hp to weight doesn't say bonkers to me at all.

@icaneat50eggs - A standard early VW Beetle weighs around 1700 pounds in street trim. I'm talking about removing the entire body and interior. You don't think there is 500 pounds to be lost there?

The aircooled engines are chosen for simplicity and durability. The car isn't exactly about "bang for the buck".

Lets put it this way. A friend of mine has a company that manufactures radial engined bi-planes built on a design from World War I. They are not inexpensive, they are not practical, but they do offer an experience that you cannot get anywhere else.

I'm looking to reach a group that wants the "old school feel" for track use. It's a hardcore car that could have reasonably been assembled in the early to mid 1950s.

icaneat50eggs wrote: 100 hp and 12:1 hp to weight doesn't say bonkers to me at all.

Sure, not in traditional GRM "I can build 1000 horsepower for 50 bucks and a toothpick" fashion, but it's certainly a more bonkers driving experience than most sports cars available today.

Think of it like a REALLY OLD Ariel Atom, and you'll get what's going on here, I think.

the fiat started at 1650 according to everything I've seen. I don't know, i'm just looking at my car and not seeing anything else that could be removed that hasn't been, or made into aluminum or fiberglass. My engine/trans is about 75 lbs heavier than a VW, and another 25 for radiator. that get's me down to 1375, or 275 lbs under stock. I guess it's possible.

I guess I see this as a super cool project that you could do, but don't see much marketability. Your making a retro racercar, where is it going to race? what you described wouldn't be allowed on most tracks, for lack of rollover protection. I'm not familiar with vintage racing, but I doubt it would fit there.

and on the weight, I'm pretty sure formula V's come in at between 1050-1100 lbs, and there is way less there than what you are proposing.

I just attended the Import and Kit Car Show at Carlisle this past weekend. There are still a few VW-based kits being sold, but they seem to be buggies. Anything with sporting intentions is build on a purpose-built chassis.

Right now, the car I drool over every year is a Sylva J15 built by Galek Motorsports: MC engine w/ electric reverse moving 1100 lbs.

icaneat50eggs wrote: the fiat started at 1650 according to everything I've seen. I don't know, i'm just looking at my car and not seeing anything else that could be removed that hasn't been, or made into aluminum or fiberglass. My engine/trans is about 75 lbs heavier than a VW, and another 25 for radiator. that get's me down to 1375, or 275 lbs under stock. I guess it's possible. I guess I see this as a super cool project that you could do, but don't see much marketability. Your making a retro racercar, where is it going to race? what you described wouldn't be allowed on most tracks, for lack of rollover protection. I'm not familiar with vintage racing, but I doubt it would fit there.

I never said anything about not having roll protection. Of course it would have roll protection, at a minimum a roll bar, and could easily be optioned with a full cage.

Obviously this isn't up your alley, and you aren't the consumer I'd be looking for. I genuinely do appreciate the critiques, as this is exactly what I asked for. However, you are looking at it as a GRMer who could easily "build something better for less". That isn't really the point.

No, it probably would not be allowed in vintage racing (unless some loopholes were found), and no, it likely wouldn't be competitive in many racing events. In my vision, it sits in that same weird section of the market as a Morgan three-wheeler. It's just kinda cool, but not at all practical.

I see something like this being used as a moderately-wealthy guy's track day toy. For the guys that would normally run a 356 or an MG in a driving event, but want something a bit faster, more capable, and a more involved. Less structured events, like hillclimbs, club level track days, and maybe some autocrosses. It's about the experience of driving, less than being an outright winner at anything.

Ian F wrote: Right now, the car I drool over every year is a Sylva J15 built by Galek Motorsports: MC engine w/ electric reverse moving 1100 lbs.

Oh, that thing is FANTASTIC! Love it!

Maroon92 wrote: I see something like this being used as a moderately-wealthy guy's track day toy. For the guys that would normally run a 356 or an MG in a driving event, but want something a bit faster, more capable, and a more involved. Less structured events, like hillclimbs, club level track days, and maybe some autocrosses. It's about the experience of driving, less than being an outright winner at anything.

The thing is, when a 356 or MG driver gets competitive notions, the route often followed is vintage racing.

Oh it's really my cup of tea. But I know most people think my cup of tea is filled with stupidity. Yourself post just clarified it for me. A rich guys toy . A guy rich enough that he probably has several toys. I think it could definitely work there , as opposed to something like the exist that is more grass roots friendly, in that if a guy can only afford one toy, most would choose an Exocet over your car

Ian F wrote: The thing is, when a 356 or MG driver gets competitive notions, the route often followed is vintage racing.

That is a legitimate concern, now that you mention it. It's certainly got a VERY limited appeal.

With luck, it would be pretty enough, and strange enough, that it would get the "attention at the gas pumps" that people would want from a high-end sports car, and in that way, it would be a fantastic weekend driver.

There are lots of people that drive vintage minis because they like the looks they get, or the questions they get from "normal" people. I think this car would turn that up to 11...

Decent Type 1 pans are getting pretty scarce on the ground. The suspension design is antiquated. I'm an old guy and I love old crap, but I'd never build one of these. I'd do a Lotus 7 replica or a 550 Spyder replica, but I wouldn't fit in either.

Who is your target? I don't think under 30s would be interested in such a primitive design. Over 30s have so many options. What need do the car fulfill? Not really a street car, not really a track car, not a vintage car...

Build a pretty Exocet ;). IE, that first body you posted draped over an Exocet...

maj75 wrote: Decent Type 1 pans are getting pretty scarce on the ground. The suspension design is antiquated. I'm an old guy and I love old crap, but I'd never build one of these.

I must live in a strangely beetle-filled microcosm of the universe. There are about 2 dozen solid beetle project cars and runners on my local craigslist for under 5 grand. A handful are even under 1000. I don't see any reason that this project couldn't equally be built on a later coil spring beetle, either.

Who would I sell a car like this to? I think you've answered your own question...

maj75 wrote: I'd do a Lotus 7 replica or a 550 Spyder replica, but I wouldn't fit in either.

Edit: By the way, I'm 26, and I want to build one of these. Surely there are others. Like I said, there is a very limited demand for something like this, but I'm not planning to build hundreds. IF anything does develop with this project further than just one for me, it would only be 1-5 cars per year at most.

I don't really see a market for it.

Not to mention, who are you going to farm out the Engineering work too?

z31maniac wrote: I don't really see a market for it. Not to mention, who are you going to farm out the Engineering work too?

No, there is no market for it. A 'market' would imply at least 10 cars. I'm looking for 1 person per year. There are people out there that COLLECT MICROCARS! The car community is quite diverse, and I'd be inclined to believe that I'm not the only person in the world looking for something like this.

In the very first comment on this thread, Woody mentioned that he has thought about a similar project. All I would need to do is find one person per year that had similar thoughts to Woody and I, didn't have the time, space, or willpower to complete a build project, and had the spare cash. That doesn't sound as impossible as you are making it out to be.

What Engineering? You mean building a cage?

I want to learn more about the hardened biplane fabric. That is relevant to my interest in building a boat tailed street speedster much like your idea, only not vw based.think gm 3.4

Dusterbd13 wrote: I want to learn more about the hardened biplane fabric. That is relevant to my interest in building a boat tailed street speedster much like your idea, only not vw based.think gm 3.4

Relevant to your interests.

Maroon92 wrote:

maj75 wrote: Decent Type 1 pans are getting pretty scarce on the ground. The suspension design is antiquated. I'm an old guy and I love old crap, but I'd never build one of these.

I must live in a strangely beetle-filled microcosm of the universe. There are about 2 dozen solid beetle project cars and runners on my local craigslist for under 5 grand. A handful are even under 1000. I don't see any reason that this project couldn't equally be built on a later coil spring beetle, either.

You'd need an entirely different design to use a super beetle chassis as the struts mount to the body on the upper portion so your new body/framework would need to accommodate that. If anything I'd make it your goal to use a superbeetle (strut/coil spring model) as your base. The are the lowest desirability and latest built. There is a better chance of getting some performance out of that front suspension and disk brakes are much simpler on them.

I get where you are going with the idea, but I build a lot of toys (including the wartburg) based on VW parts. I do it because its simple and it used to be cheap. For engines I'd probably never go with an aircooled again if my wallet gave me a choice, the subaru swap is too easy and brings sooooo much more to the table.

I'll third the problem of good ACVW donors. Even some $5000 Beetles have rust in the pans if you live north of the Mason-Dixon line. That means half of your customers would need to start by restoring a rusty pan. No thanks. BTDT got the t-shirt.

Using a custom chassis that uses VW hard points makes more sense, as it allows an either/or build. A custom chassis with more modern suspension and drivetrain options makes even more sense, but I think it would be easy to creep too far away from your original "vintage" goal with this.

If you're not stuck on rear engined, why not a more modern yet still classic(ish) donor? Maybe one that rusts with a vengeance but leaves the suspension and drivetrain useable? 80s BMWs fit the bill, and can still be had relatively cheaply. 944 with skinny tires, Lister style body, and two Webers maybe?

I like the idea, I'm just not sold that basing on the ACVW is the way to go.