Why is there a vintage Mustang project in Grassroots Motorsports? Because here’s a cool, fun way to get on track–and in something that’s fairly fast and intoxicating. (Hey, there's something about a small-block Ford singing at full chat.)
For years we’ve gotten a funny feeling every time we see a pack of old Shelby Mustangs at an HSR race. So, we …
Is this gonna take you away from the Elva MK VI ? Yes I'll be following along....
Very cool can't wait to see what you do
Being contrary I'd argue that if someone took a challenge approach to the car that it could be built for Spec Miata money. This is a known recipe and so one could spend time combing various websites for deals on the most expensive parts.
Tom1200 said:Very cool can't wait to see what you do
Being contrary I'd argue that if someone took a challenge approach to the car that it could be built for Spec Miata money. This is a known recipe and so one could spend time combing various websites for deals on the most expensive parts.
IMHO, the article series that Tim is starting can very much show how that is done on- the Mustang isn't the only one that has limited rule sets that define what can be done. The key to the overall budget will be the rarity of the car- like a competitive AS Porsche vs. a BS Alfa vs a CS Mini- using the same rule set allowances- the costs will be very different. And each can be very competitive.
In reply to alfadriver (Forum Supporter) :
While my post may not sound like it we are on the same page.
As I'm running a C-sedan car in with C & B-sedan group I'm keenly aware of the money spent on these cars. My thought is that given the 15-20K plus people are spending on professionally built engines that someone like Tim could assemble a SBF for way less money..................or not.
Love this!
Looking forward to this Mustang build.
I really look forward to this build. This is actually what I wanted to do before I went down the path that I am currently on where I have run my 85.5 Mustang SVO in SSB/Group 3 with HSR and MP2/Group 12b with SVRA. My very first car was a '65 Mustang with a 289 that I naturally hot-rodded and wrecked and I've always wanted to revisit that time of life, this time with a little more life experience. A VAS car is totally cool, and with the restrictions placed by the sanctioning bodies can be very cost effective. My holy grail would be to campaign a '69 Boss 302 but as you point out the allowances made for HSR group 5 historic Trans Am can really bump up the cost to build such an animal. My SVO effort has been interesting and rewarding, I have learned a lot about turbo lag and how to drive a car with a very non-linear power curve, but I do miss a V-8 at full song. I do hope to see you in my group at an event in the future though!!!
I'm excited about the series because I feel like so many people think you need mega dollars to compete in vintage races when it is possible to do at a reasonable cost.
On a sidenote I'm moving to my formula car because it is more economical to run over a heavily modified production car. The engine & gearbox costs in production cars can be rather ferocious.
I crewed for a friend with a production car years ago and spent much of a summer laying on my back replacing production parts not suited to racing. He burned buckets of money buying tires, brakes and transmissions.
Like Tom1200 I'm racing a Formula Ford. Close racing with great people at a performance level of a very quick Corvette. Much lower cost of operation, easier to service and performance of far more expensive machinery. Cost of admission from $10K to 20K for '73-81, up to 30K for a '72 and earlier. All are competitive with treaded tires. We get 30 to 50 cars here on the west coast. Fun all the way through the grid, there is always someone to race with.
In reply to Daniel Wise :
I think the GRM crew will manage to make it reliable. The other bonus is being you can buy everything from Jegs or Summit. I actually looked at parts and a new Super T10 trans is 2K, heads are $700, roller rockers are $300, forged cranks are $400, the rules noted a single 4 barrel carb, the rear disc brake kit is $600 and so there doesn't appear to be anything totally outrageous price wise.
For some folks only a V8 will do and so I'm very interested to see how the GRM Mustang turns out.
Tom1200 said:I'm excited about the series because I feel like so many people think you need mega dollars to compete in vintage races when it is possible to do at a reasonable cost.
On a sidenote I'm moving to my formula car because it is more economical to run over a heavily modified production car. The engine & gearbox costs in production cars can be rather ferocious.
Production engines can be affordable and durable if••••you stay within the limits of the parts. I raced my 3.8 Jaguar engine for decades. But I kept it under 6,000 rpm except for brief moments on rare occasions. And I dealt with weakness all production engines have while racing of sticky race rubber. That is oil surge.
A dry sump is required for durability. It doesn't make any extra horsepower but it keeps oil at proper pressure in wheel to wheel racing. Nothing else does.
The class they intend to run in doesn't allow a dry sump system. I'm sure there is an off the self solution for SBFs, the rules do allow an Accusump.
I've run my Datsun for 30 years with nothing more than a baffled pan with no issue whatsoever.
In reply to Tom1200 :
In 1954 Jaguar found out that oil surge was causing short bearing life. Those cars had 5 inch wide tires that often lasted the whole 24 hour race. Since then no factory race car failed to have a dry sump system.
An Accusump is not a real solution. While it supplies oil when the pickup goes dry some goes out the intake and some gets pumped up to the bearings but once emptied and assuming oil has gotten back to the pick up the oil will be pumped back into the accusump as well as to the engine. Just increasing the time the engine is operating at less than full pressure.
In long corners where the oil slides up the front or sides of the motor. The pickup will remain uncovered often while full power is required.
Baffles will work if the pan is deep enough and short enough. Few powerful engines a will survive. There are methods to put multiple pumps inside a pan and create the appearance of not having a dry sump.
Running a 25 year old Miata in a vintage group is cheaper than running a V8 anything.
In reply to frenchyd :
A better solution- stop pretending Jags of any type are representative of all cars out there. Just because your engine has oiling problems does not mean every other one does, including V8s' that are more powerful.
I'm going to wager a bet that this AS car will be both competitive and reasonably priced to build w/o a dry sump.
In reply to alfadriver (Forum Supporter) :
I use Jaguar because I'm familiar with them. I also raced a well baffled Corvette that couldn't finish a SCCA regional event at full song without a dry sump.
Listening to Champ car and LeMons racers I don't believe any of the Chevy V8 powered cars have won a race. ( to be fair I haven't checked every race but that seems to be accepted practice).
I suspect nearly any car if driven gently enough should be able to last for several events. I've seen plenty of drivers do that. My 54 hp MG which has a 5000 rpm red line and I've never exceeded it. Has a very deep sump holding a lot of oil. Effectively providing much the benefit of a dry sump. Is plenty durable. So I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions.
But if your oil pressure is lower at the end of a race than early during the race. And you find a frequent need to refresh it, You might address oil surge.
MGBs, Midgets and Spitfires seem to be everywhere and ratty ones that could be racecar fodder are cheap. Old Mustangs and Camaros seem to be a lot more expensive and attractive to collectors.
In reply to Snowdoggie :
Well said. They do command a real premium.
Daniel Wise said:I crewed for a friend with a production car years ago and spent much of a summer laying on my back replacing production parts not suited to racing. He burned buckets of money buying tires, brakes and transmissions.
Like Tom1200 I'm racing a Formula Ford. Close racing with great people at a performance level of a very quick Corvette. Much lower cost of operation, easier to service and performance of far more expensive machinery. Cost of admission from $10K to 20K for '73-81, up to 30K for a '72 and earlier. All are competitive with treaded tires. We get 30 to 50 cars here on the west coast. Fun all the way through the grid, there is always someone to race with.
Actually I think a Formula Ford can be Faster than all but the top Corvette, Cobra, or XKE. And definitely cheaper to race.
Aside from that making suspension or tuning changes is massively easier on a Formula Ford over the Corvette, Cobra, or XKE
759NRNG (Forum Partidario) said:Is this gonna take you away from the Elva MK VI ? Yes I'll be following along....
Same! Looking foreward to a vintage stang but for some reason I'm a sucker for that Elva.
In reply to alfadriver (Forum Supporter) :
I'm also willing to bet the car will be fine without a dry sump, since the rules don't allow it, but more importantly I see lots of SBF power cars without dry sumps and they always seem to finish nor do I recall them going kablamo.
Don't ask me why I'm so interested in this series but I really am.......Tim needs to hurry up and finish it as I have no patience.
frenchyd said:In reply to Snowdoggie :
Well said. They do command a real premium.
My neighbor has four of them right now and a shell for another 67 Camaro. They day that landed in his front yard people were making unsolicited offers for it. All for stupid money. I know of two MG Midgets in the area that could be had for less than $500. One actually runs. You would probably have to dump about 10K into one to make it a proper racecar but that is still cheap compared to what else is out there.
CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) said:759NRNG (Forum Partidario) said:Is this gonna take you away from the Elva MK VI ? Yes I'll be following along....
Same! Looking foreward to a vintage stang but for some reason I'm a sucker for that Elva.
I agree with you. That Elva tickles me. Maybe because I believe I saw that race at the Met Stadium in Bloomington at the first Sports car race I ever attended.
CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) said:759NRNG (Forum Partidario) said:Is this gonna take you away from the Elva MK VI ? Yes I'll be following along....
Same! Looking foreward to a vintage stang but for some reason I'm a sucker for that Elva.
thanks y'all for the interest into a hmmm truly "vintage" piece of racing heritage/barnfind...that Tim seems to be pursuing with the prerequisite "all hands on deck"....late
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