PSA on Problems in New Hyundai/Kia 4 Bangers

The new Hyundai Kia Smartstream engines, particularly the 2.5 na stuff, are already being recalled in Korea due to extremely high oil consumption, causing engines to seize and spin folks off the road. The case study in the video mentions a dude whose brand new K5 emptied the sump dry in 6k miles, which is a problem in cars with recommended 10k oil change intervals.

I couldn't find mych good information about this on the English web, probably because you guys have only had Smartstreams for a couple months (June 30th 2020 announcement for you guys I think), but we've had them for about a year and a half, meaning mechanics have had time to figure out the patterns and causes of the problem. 

https://youtu.be/0DVINZlMRdU

So, according to this gentleman and as translated by me: 

1. The gdi half of the the gdi/mpi combined system is designed to run very hot combustion temps in certain circumstances. In order to handle the heat, the Smartstream piston rings have about double the normal amount of ring gap as on earlier engines. (This sounds like a fuel economy test cheat strategy to me.) This results in a lot of blowby in normal driving. The fact the lower compression turbo 2.5 engines can't get as hot at light liad, and thus don't have as much ring gap (I assume) probably explains why they seem more reliable so far.

2. Shaking and juddering in the 2.5t at heavy load, around 40 to 50 mph. This only manifests in the luxury tank SUV things. The gentleman theorizes the juddering is caused by having a heavy car, full of people, operating at too low rpm because the transmission won't downshift. This also seems like a fuel economy test cheat to me. 

3. PCR system is way underbuilt for an engine designed to have big blowby. Not enough oil vapor is captured and returned to the sump.

4. Bad piston design. The pistons have extremely short skirts. This causes rocking in the bores, scuffing and widening tolerances. (Sounds like a fuel economy cheat strategy)

5. Carbon and sludge buildup on the badly designed pistons, caused by the overwhelmed pcr system. This sludge seizes the already bad piston rings. This happens as soon as 4500 miles.

6. Sludge also builds up on the gdi injectors. This makes the designed in "hot cycle" less precise and/or likely to happen, meaning the wide ring gaps are less likely to ever expand where they're designed to go.

In summary, it seems like there are a number of problems that, fundamentally, all trace mechanically to the pistons and philosophically to Hyundai Kia's well documented desire to game fuel economy tests.  https://autoinformed.com/hyundai-kia-fined-record-amount-fuel-economy-cheating/

Bonus fact, in Korea at least, dealers have "fixed" the problem by swapping dip sticks. The new dip sticks extend the "normal" oil level lower into the sump.

If any of you all bought a new 2.5 Hyundai Kia, you might want to embrace the 3k mile oil change while you wait for the inevitable recalls.

Interesting.

There was also this:

https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2021/hyundai-and-kia-engine-lawsuit-gdi-mpi-engines.shtml

Is it just me, or has there been an increase in announced newer car engine issues over the last few years? If that's true, I wonder why? Alternatively, it seems manufacturers are being held to an increasing high standard. If something is related to safety (and almost everything can have safety implications), it seems to get a recall, even in rather old products.

Didn't Hyundai have a terrible engine problem around 2012 too?

I had a friend that was on his 3rd engine in his at about 60k miles

Snrub said:

Interesting.

There was also this:

https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2021/hyundai-and-kia-engine-lawsuit-gdi-mpi-engines.shtml

Is it just me, or has there been an increase in announced newer car engine issues over the last few years? 

There is a lot more fussy stuff inside engines these days.  As a shop owner, I have gone from a day where we needed valve grinds, maybe rings, or a good used engine every so often, to a time where we installed used engines after the owner hadn't changed or checked the oil for a couple of years, to a time where we have to fix dod  lifters and cam phasers and oil pump solenoids and various things installed to make a bit more power or burn a bit less fuel.

Stuff is complex, and sometimes they get it wrong.

Makes you wonder how long the ICE can hold off the electric revolution.  I was just looking at some cars yesterday with Lil Stampie and told him that in 20 years people will look at our collection of ICE vehicles like I used to look at people that owned a horse to get around.

Huh. 

I know most automakers will just say "you're supposed to check the oil on a regular basis, says so in the owner's manual.  Oil consumption under 1 quart in 200 miles (about 1l/350km) is not covered under warranty.  This is user neglect and we won't cover a new engine"

It seems like any GM with 0W20 oil will burn three quarts between scheduled oil changes.  On a 5.3 with its 8 quart sump, this is kind of okay, but on a 5 quart Ecotec that isn't very good to the engine.

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

I'll leave the politics out of the argument but the electric motor is why more powerful, reliable, makes less noise, and is clean not in emissions but simple things like oil leaking from a valve cover gasket.  The only thing holding it back is infrastructure and range.  Both of those are being worked on right now.  I'm looking at properties right now and thought longer about one near 95 because soon it'll be a lot quieter without all the ICE vehicles.

Stampie (FS) said:I'm looking at properties right now and thought longer about one near 95 because soon it'll be a lot quieter without all the ICE vehicles.

I dunno about that.  On most modern cars, it seems to me that the biggest source of noise (from the outside perspective) is the tires, not the drivetrain. 

In reply to rslifkin :

I don't disagree with this

In reply to rslifkin :

Ayup.

I was amused when people were ga-ga over electrically driven A/C compressors, because then they could mount them to the chassis and use hardlines for everything, eliminating a source of leakage.

But, turns out A/C compressors are awfully noisy, especially electrics that run at fairly high speed.  So, they get mounted to the engine...

DirtyBird222 said:

Stampie (FS) said:

Makes you wonder how long the ICE can hold off the electric revolution.  I was just looking at some cars yesterday with Lil Stampie and told him that in 20 years people will look at our collection of ICE vehicles like I used to look at people that owned a horse to get around.

It seems as if ICE is fighting with their hands behind their back from regulations, emissions, and other mandatory BS that big gov't feels the need to enforce. 

You obviously hadn't experienced LA in the 80's and 90's. I'll gladly take all the emissions "BS" to be able to breathe. My buddy only puts 100LL in his motorcycles and I hate riding behind him (in a full-face helmet). 

Flounder/Counterflounder off.

I guess my view is jaded by Mr. 6am Powerstroke neighbor that needs to idle 15 minutes so that his way more reliable engine can survive the run down the street at full throttle.  Ok maybe I harbor some anger here.

In reply to Stampie (FS) :

Schroedinger's Diesel.  They're so tough that they can make a bazillion foot-pounds of torque at all the boost, but they're so delicate that you can't shut them off because starting them will wreck them.

The TSX always burned the majority of their oil before the mai minder said to change the oil. The second gen Honda had to replace a ton of engines because they jnatallled the wrong pistons and rings. All in an effort to get that last little bit of economy. This is nothing new. Just a different player trying to reach farther and missing. 

Whether or not the future looks like Elon Musk's fever dreams or not (I still think hydrogen is a better long term answer), the fundamental problem is that the more responsible your car is, the more regulators clamp down on you while, conversely, the more of a burden you are on society at large, the more leeway you get. This is why utility vehicles from the 1920s like Ford Model T's get as good or better fuel economy than many full-sized SUVs and many, many bro-dozer things 100 years later. The bigger, heavier, taller and compromised your vehicle is, the lower the economy, safety and emissions standards get. Therefore, when Ford or Hyundai want to make something that weighs a million pounds, crushes pedestrians and other motorists in crashes, can't reliably avoid crashes, makes parking annoying for everyone else, increases congestion and doesn't properly stop/turn, it's an easy task. However, when they wish to make something that's efficient, rationally sized, clean, safe, easy to park and space efficient, they have to meet sky high regulatory standards. This isn't going to change just because we go electric - the only difference is that we'll shift some of the truck/suv burdens from the Shell corporation onto power providers and cobalt miners. You can see this in the Smartstream engines. The versions that we should be encouraging - moderately powered, efficient sedan engines like the 2.5 NA Sonata - have to meet extremely high burdens and thus require all these reliability-crushing cheats. The versions that burden society - the turbo stuff intended for luxury cars and (mostly) SUV tank nonsense - doesn't have to meet those standards and is thus more reliable. 

That said, on a selfish level, I like to see these problems. I have a Genesis Coupe with a Theta I. If a bunch of Smartstream engines end up in trash heaps, and if they truly are as similar to Theta I/Theta II stuff as they seem to be, I think I might have found a great short block swap candidate to stuff some pistons in and slide under my Theta I head and intake system. 

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

Didn't Hyundai have a terrible engine problem around 2012 too?

 

I had a friend that was on his 3rd engine in his at about 60k miles

Yes, Theta II engines (and NU engines to a slightly lesser extent) don't like to oil the big end rods on their number 3 pistons. 

Teh E36 M3 said:

DirtyBird222 said:

Stampie (FS) said:

Makes you wonder how long the ICE can hold off the electric revolution.  I was just looking at some cars yesterday with Lil Stampie and told him that in 20 years people will look at our collection of ICE vehicles like I used to look at people that owned a horse to get around.

It seems as if ICE is fighting with their hands behind their back from regulations, emissions, and other mandatory BS that big gov't feels the need to enforce. 

You obviously hadn't experienced LA in the 80's and 90's. I'll gladly take all the emissions "BS" to be able to breathe. My buddy only puts 100LL in his motorcycles and I hate riding behind him (in a full-face helmet). 

Flounder/Counterflounder off.

I have experienced LA. Crazy how even during COVID where there were significantly less cars on the road on a daily basis, the black soot kept accumulating on my patio. It probably had nothing to do with the industrial pollution in LA county though. 

I'll leave the politics out of the argument but the electric motor is why more powerful, reliable, makes less noise, and is clean not in emissions but simple things like oil leaking from a valve cover gasket.  The only thing holding it back is infrastructure and range.  Both of those are being worked on right now.  I'm looking at properties right now and thought longer about one near 95 because soon it'll be a lot quieter without all the ICE vehicles.

Is buying a new car that required a literal ton of raw materials really that much better for the environment or is keeping an older car operating the better take away for mother earth? I would love to see some real science behind lets say keeping a 1999 Honda Civic running (in proper running order) vs. buying a new EV when you consider the mining for raw metals, mining for batteries, plastic production, electricity used to produce all the parts, logistics to get all parts to final assembly, etc. 

Also back on topic and sorry to derail --- but does this PSA affect the 2020+ Hyundai Velosterd N?  

I also wonder if while constantly pushing to improve profitability, companies have reduced the size of their engine/powertrain engineering groups? Do they conduct the same amount of testing as before?

Hyundai has probably cause more recent evolutionary disruption to the industry than any other company. They have lower prices, lower prices for higher features/equipment levels and done this while drastically increasing their quality/reliability. Now they are rolling out an increasing number of convincing competitors in luxury segments. They have achieved all this while manufacturing in countries with more expensive labor.

Regarding the end to end environmental impacts discussion; Yes the end to end impacts are important, but it's also important to rank the types of environmental damage. For example, CO2 emissions pose a grave threat, smog/air quality gradually kills people/causes health impacts, while heaps of trash make certain bits of land non-productive. The majority of people have utilized one of the biggest loophole in fuel economy/emissions regulations - the fact that they are size specific and they've upsize their vehicle class. The same regulations encouraged manufacturers to make big vehicles more economical to operate.

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

No. The N is not a smart stream engine. 
 

I remember LA basin in the mid 80's and then again around 99(?). Definitely cleaner. But the fact that they built a city in a bowl sure didn't help. There were miners accounts of the smoke from campfires when there was a small fraction of the people there are now and how it clogged the afternoon sun. Gotta have ventilation!

bobzilla said:

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

No. The N is not a smart stream engine. 
 

I remember LA basin in the mid 80's and then again around 99(?). Definitely cleaner. But the fact that they built a city in a bowl sure didn't help. There were miners accounts of the smoke from campfires when there was a small fraction of the people there are now and how it clogged the afternoon sun. Gotta have ventilation!

Thanks for that info - any issues with the N one should know about? 

The amount of "soot" build up even on the coast always blew my mind. I love leaving my windows open there but it comes at a price of everything being covered in soot. All that industrial pollution in LA county doesn't help either. Such a wonderful yet terrible place to live. 

DaewooOfDeath said:

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

Didn't Hyundai have a terrible engine problem around 2012 too?

 

I had a friend that was on his 3rd engine in his at about 60k miles

Yes, Theta II engines (and NU engines to a slightly lesser extent) don't like to oil the big end rods on their number 3 pistons. 

Our dealership stopped selling the used Hyundai/Kias we took in on trade for a while because just about every Hyundai/Kia we sold whipped a connecting rod through the block within a year's time despite being serviced regularly. We also have had a number of Hyundai/Kias get towed in (despite us being a GM dealer) because they kicked a connecting rod out while driving by and we were the nearest shop to have it towed to. Its pretty sad that I work at a GM dealer and the Hyundai 2.4L is probably the engine I've seen the second most of blown up.

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

I mean, we can't leave our windows open here. But that's because we live on a gravel road. In the middle of hundreds of acres of fields. and it's dry right now. The amount of dust we get..... its crazy. But that is a different thing. 

Quit bragging, bobzilla. 

DirtyBird222 said:

Teh E36 M3 said:

DirtyBird222 said:

Stampie (FS) said:

Makes you wonder how long the ICE can hold off the electric revolution.  I was just looking at some cars yesterday with Lil Stampie and told him that in 20 years people will look at our collection of ICE vehicles like I used to look at people that owned a horse to get around.

It seems as if ICE is fighting with their hands behind their back from regulations, emissions, and other mandatory BS that big gov't feels the need to enforce. 

You obviously hadn't experienced LA in the 80's and 90's. I'll gladly take all the emissions "BS" to be able to breathe. My buddy only puts 100LL in his motorcycles and I hate riding behind him (in a full-face helmet). 

Flounder/Counterflounder off.

I have experienced LA. Crazy how even during COVID where there were significantly less cars on the road on a daily basis, the black soot kept accumulating on my patio. It probably had nothing to do with the industrial pollution in LA county though. 

I'll leave the politics out of the argument but the electric motor is why more powerful, reliable, makes less noise, and is clean not in emissions but simple things like oil leaking from a valve cover gasket.  The only thing holding it back is infrastructure and range.  Both of those are being worked on right now.  I'm looking at properties right now and thought longer about one near 95 because soon it'll be a lot quieter without all the ICE vehicles.

Is buying a new car that required a literal ton of raw materials really that much better for the environment or is keeping an older car operating the better take away for mother earth? I would love to see some real science behind lets say keeping a 1999 Honda Civic running (in proper running order) vs. buying a new EV when you consider the mining for raw metals, mining for batteries, plastic production, electricity used to produce all the parts, logistics to get all parts to final assembly, etc. 

Also back on topic and sorry to derail --- but does this PSA affect the 2020+ Hyundai Velosterd N?  

I totally agree with you on replacement impact.  I'm not advocating a cold turkey switch to electric.  But when they get down to where my cheap SOB will consider I'm sure I'll have one for a daily.