The Andy Lally thread reminded me of this important fact which I've learned recently:
I also learned that one of the officially recommended methods to check for a suspected invisible fire is to ball up a piece of paper and throw it at the area where you think the fire may be. The paper will burst into a highly visible orange flame if there's an invisible fire there.
Don't wait to know whether there's a fire - follow Roger Penske's example - if you think there's an alcohol fire, start throwing buckets of water.
That's one of the advantages of methanol over gasoline. It is a lot harder to ignite and a lot easier to extinguish.
Water will put methanol out?
I ask only because washer fluid is a water/methanol mix, and it will burn if you dump it on a existing flame.
Knurled. said:Water will put methanol out?
I ask only because washer fluid is a water/methanol mix, and it will burn if you dump it on a existing flame.
Adding water will put it out in 2 ways: removing enough heat to make it stop burning and by diluting the methanol mixture to the point where it's not particularly flammable anymore.
I remember Robbie Gordon rolling all over the ground at the Indy 500 one year. Almost looked like Ricky Bobby, but I knew he was on fire. No flames at all.
It's yet another reason why I got rid of my water/meth cooling system. The reason they recommend no more than 50% methanol is to keep the meth/water mixture non-flammable.
The other reason I got rid of it is because it's highly poisonous.
In reply to Knurled. :
Absolutely. Water puts out alcohol fires.
In reply to kb58 :
Actually 50% water won’t burn. I don’t know the actual point but I doubt 75%methanol will burn. Watch alcohol fires burning at Indy sometimes as little as a bucket of water puts out the fire.
In reply to kb58 :
Absolutely, denatured alcohol on the other hand made from ethanol with a mere 2% of a denaturing agent is pretty benign.
Pure ethanol alcohol is 200 proof corn whiskey. Well it can be made from anything. But corn is most common.
I have been in close proximity to a few CART/Indy methanol fires during refueling. The biggest was about 40 feet away and you could feel the huge puddle of fuel ignite (both concussion and heat). The fueler was wearing all the protective gear but still managed to get burned lungs when he took a breath of burning methanol fumes.
The fire extinguishers were all filled with water and buckets of water were lined up along the pit lane for every practice/qualifying/race/test.
In reply to stafford1500 :
Perhaps that’s why they use 15% gasoline in E85. So the flames show up?
NASCAR uses ethanol mixed with gasoline and they haven’t had any increase in fires.
When did Indy make the switch from methanol to ethanol? It’s Ben at least a decade hasn’t it?
Just checked 2007.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Old videos aren’t they? One looks like early 1980’s the other mid 90’s?
Since you are going that far back why not show some gasoline fires? Gas ignited a lot easier and is much harder to put out. You throw water on a gas fire and it just spreads
Unless you watch Driven, with Sly Stallone. You can crash your Indycar into a pond, in a driving rain storm, and it will combust sitting in three feet of water.
frenchyd said:In reply to GameboyRMH :
Old videos aren’t they? One looks like early 1980’s the other mid 90’s?
Since you are going that far back why not show some gasoline fires? Gas ignited a lot easier and is much harder to put out. You throw water on a gas fire and it just spreads
The tragic 1964 indy 500 in particular the fatal Dave MacDonald Eddie Sachs crash is what resulted in gasoline being being effectively outlawed from Indycar racing in favour of methanol.
In reply to MotorsportsGordon :
Gasoline wasn’t banned but rules were changed to encourage methanol.
Im reasonably sure that Roger Rager in 1980 led the Indy 500 for a couple of laps even though his car was outdated and powered by a school bus engine. If my memory is right he did that because he could run on gasoline and get better mileage.
Chills down my back.
The guys with yellow shirts and hats with fire extinguishers? It was a group of fire protection guys that were part of the NFPA - a group of guys that volunteered to work in the pits at the Indy 500. Three guys per pit. One jumped the wall and two stayed behind the wall. None of them were really trained and my dad worked the pits from 1975 until this accident and they then put real fireman into the pits.
We also got into the track the night before and slept in our cars or on the ground - no tents or campers allowed. Most of those guys got little sleep and might have had s few beers that night. My dad loved this race to his dying day - he told me it was a rush when the cars came in
I still have the yellow shirt and hat - “500 Pit Fire Crew”.
In reply to frenchyd :
I think the point he’s making is at least you can see gas on fire. Invisible fire is a frightening thing to suddenly have.
"Seen" a lot of alcohol fires in Australian burnout competition videos as well. It's weird to watch the paint start bubbling and plastic melt for seemingly no reason.
I don't ever want to be on fire from gas or methanol. But at least with gas, everyone looking at you knows you're on fire, making it a little easier for them to respond quickly.
frenchyd said:In reply to MotorsportsGordon :
Gasoline wasn’t banned but rules were changed to encourage methanol.
Im reasonably sure that Roger Rager in 1980 led the Indy 500 for a couple of laps even though his car was outdated and powered by a school bus engine. If my memory is right he did that because he could run on gasoline and get better mileage.
He did qualify for race in 10th though. Methonal fuel is pretty common in American v8 engines,drag racing,sprint cars,dirt late models,dirt modifieds etc to name a few.
E85 is 15% gasoline for cold start reasons, and so you don't drink it.
E95 runs something like $30 a handle, er $60 per gallon...
In reply to MotorsportsGordon :
Yeh he did, with a three year old chassis and the engine from a school bus. In fact his sponsor was the same bus company that gave him the the engine.
He did it on a budget that in Indy car terms would meet the challenge limits. In a modest garage with no engineers in sight.
In reply to Knurled. :
All it takes to avoid the alcohol consumption tax is 2% denaturing. And 98% pure ethanol sells for about $10- 12. A gallon at your hardware store. That price also includes a neat new steel gallon can and profit for the hardware store owner plus transportation to each hardware store.
I buy a lot of it because I use it with shellac 2 gallons of denatured alcohol to one gallon of shellac. When you have as much hardwood as I do ( 55,000 bd ft) you use a lot of it.
Oh and if you buy it in bulk the last drum I bought cost me $3.63 a gallon including shipping and a neat new steel 55 gallon drum
In reply to MotorsportsGordon : I understand why they are switching from methanol to ethanol.
Methanol is some nasty stuff. In the old days they use to just pour it and well the splashed stuff evaporated fast didn’t it?
Now they wear special splash aprons, face shields, big rubber gloves that go past the elbow, and those replaceable cartridge respirators
That’s all learned the hard way from racers and mechanics dying.
On the other hand racers drink ethanol. In their beer, wine, Bourbon, Scotch, etc.
True, the stuff in the tank has been denatured in a way that makes it not drinkable.
Someone should invent an infrared visor for fire responders and crew workers.
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