In reply to njansenv:
AFAIK, yes they are still that cheap.
In reply to njansenv:
AFAIK, yes they are still that cheap.
And my answer, 2.4 DCX product. I know you could also do a Duratec 2.3 too....
alfadriver wrote: People have posted about the 2.3l Turbo in the T-bird/stang/Merkur being quite stout, too. I have no real knowledge of that engine.
Yeah but he was looking for a FWD application, the 2.3 (non T) were mated up FWD in manual format to the Tempo, so no FWD Ford trans would mate and take 350 HP, the best option is the Turbo Dodge IMO. Plus the Ford 2.3T weighs a ton, the head on that motor feels like it weighs as much as my entire Fiat's bottom end...
The problem is that OP specifically said FWD.
You could quite easily get a Miata (EGT/Protege in this case) motor to 350whp on challenge budget if you're a savvy shopper for rods and pistons. However, you won't have a transmission that will hold it for challenge budget, so back to the drawing board.
So here's the usual suspects in my opinion, ranking in no particular order:
1) Turbo mopar of really any kind
2) Mazda F2T. If you can't get it with the H-type trans still attached, don't even bother, because your only other option is sticking a Toyota trans on it, which will be rough on a challenge budget unless you happen to have a full machine shop in your garage.
3) Honda B-series. While i wouldn't trust a 350whp B18B1 to last for decades, i would absolutely trust it to last a year or two. Worth a shot. Also see: Honda F-series. (The accord/prelude motors)
4) Nissan KA24DE. Motor will hold it, not sure about the FWD transmissions it's attached to, though
5) Toyota 3sge/3sgte. While you probably won't find a 3sgte with trans for challenge budget, there aren't that many differences that would prevent you from starting with a motor/trans from an 86-89 Celica GTS. That motor should hold around 350whp, and the trans will be fine. If you want a little more safety net, grab a set of "GTE" slugs and sticks off any toyota forum for peanuts. Alternatively, start with a 2nd gen 3sge from ebay, they're cheap.
6) 4g63 is a given
7) Not a 4-cylinder, but lighter than anything else mentioned so far: Mazda KL. 2.5 litres, is crazy fast under boost, spools big turbos with no issues, and with a big enough turbo, the trans isn't so much a problem. 350whp is attainable with proper turbo and tune.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: A bunch of awesome ideas
I like you. Tell me more about this one:
7) Not a 4-cylinder, but lighter than anything else mentioned so far: Mazda KL. 2.5 litres, is crazy fast under boost, spools big turbos with no issues, and with a big enough turbo, the trans isn't so much a problem. 350whp is attainable with proper turbo and tune.
tuna55 wrote:92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: A bunch of awesome ideasI like you. Tell me more about this one: 7) Not a 4-cylinder, but lighter than anything else mentioned so far: Mazda KL. 2.5 litres, is crazy fast under boost, spools big turbos with no issues, and with a big enough turbo, the trans isn't so much a problem. 350whp is attainable with proper turbo and tune.
Well, they're cheap, can find them in any junkyard, you've got your choice of two transmission gearings. MX6 is longer than Probe/MX3. MX3 trans has better and stronger mounting, which helps longevity.
Ebay turbo hot pipes can be had for cheap. I've seen a few sets for under $100 on the forums, otherwise, i'm pretty sure they're less than $200 new. Or make your own.
I will be candid and say that 350whp might be the ragged edge, but... they really don't need that much to be fast. They're one of those weird motors that far outperforms their numbers, and they're extremely efficient under boost.
http://youtu.be/Fh9ig7gkiLM
That car at time of video was running 5.5psi on an Ebay turbo kit, nothing to tune with other than FMU. Seriously. It's a pretty small turbo, too, he lives about 2 hours north of me. Not that i condone street-racing, but i was witness to this particular car racing a black 1g MX6 that was pushing 20psi on a T3/T4 60ish trim turbo. The 1g only pulled about 3 cars. He's since gone to megasquirt and ported the hell out of his head, still stock bottom end. He'll hit mid 300s.
The KL is all aluminum, sounds insane.
Here's another example. This is in an MX3, KLG4 out of a junkyard. (non-supercharged Millenia.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR1T_yJJMCE
Not bad for 14psi on a somewhat small turbo, huh? That car has since been in the 11s, with a full leather interior. Car weighs about 2800lbs.
OK, let's do this: For each of these, what is required to get near or past the 350 HP level. Assuming I weld all exhaust stuff from scrap mandrels and scrounge for junk/used turbos. What is required of the short block? What is the easiest (on a challenge budget) engine management? How close to the edge of hard parts (pistons, rods, etc) are we at this level? What kind of availability are we talking about (The ecotec LSJ is a good starting point, but there is really no way to get into one on a challenge budget)?
Mazda KL
Ecotec
Mazda F2T
4G63T
2.2 Dodge
2.4 Dodge
Go Saturn. The Eco-Tec can put out crazy HP with the addition of a turbo and parts are cheap.
tuna55 wrote: OK, let's do this: For each of these, what is required to get near or past the 350 HP level. Assuming I weld all exhaust stuff from scrap mandrels and scrounge for junk/used turbos. What is required of the short block? What is the easiest (on a challenge budget) engine management? How close to the edge of hard parts (pistons, rods, etc) are we at this level? What kind of availability are we talking about (The ecotec LSJ is a good starting point, but there is really no way to get into one on a challenge budget)? Mazda KL Ecotec Mazda F2T 4G63T 2.2 Dodge 2.4 Dodge
Speaking to the two that i'm most familiar with, the mazda motors...
The F2T is the "easy button." 350whp might be rough to do, simply because of characteristics of the motor itself. (Not the greatest head flow, intake manifold runners too long, etc) However, over 300whp is cake, and it WILL come with over 400wtq. F2T is way faster than HP would suggest.
Anyways, to answer your questions:
F2T: Leave shortblock stock, it's fine. Couple different options for tuning. Megasquirt, HKS PFC Fcon if you can find one, RX7 460s + FMU setup, or 370-390cc injectors on stock ecu with a hacked VAF.
You'd probably want at least a 60trim turbo if you're worried about 350whp. Otherwise... just put something big on it. It'll spool an HX35 without sweating, for example. The motor will not be stressed at this level with a good tune. I actually don't know of ONE F2T that has ever blown up due to too much power. They fail because of bad tuning or lack of maintenance.
Availability is decent, there's quite a few Probe GTs in the junkyards. MAKE SURE YOU GRAB THE TRANS TO GO WITH IT.
Mazda KL: Leave short block alone again. Big gains to be had porting the heads, though. You'll want to go Megasquirt for sure. 350whp is near the edge of the KL, but seriously... a 300-325whp KL is going to be nutso-fast. Availability is great, at least locally. I can go to either of my self-service yards and have my choice of at least 3-4 on any given day, for $150-$175, trans is another $50.
Raze wrote:alfadriver wrote: People have posted about the 2.3l Turbo in the T-bird/stang/Merkur being quite stout, too. I have no real knowledge of that engine.Yeah but he was looking for a FWD application, the 2.3 (non T) were mated up FWD in manual format to the Tempo, so no FWD Ford trans would mate and take 350 HP, the best option is the Turbo Dodge IMO. Plus the Ford 2.3T weighs a ton, the head on that motor feels like it weighs as much as my entire Fiat's bottom end...
From my research, the 2.3 HSC in the Tempo is a straight 6 with two cylinders missing and doesn't share really share anything with the 2.3 Lima. The two 2.3 Limas I've dealt with had the dual bolt patterns at the top (near the head). One is the standard Lima bell (Xr4ti/Tbird/Stang) and the lower ones match the Kent/CVH/SPI/Zetec*. If a transaxle attached to one of these engines could hand 350hp then you could probably make a 2.3 Lima sideways; I can't comment on oiling though.
*Later Zetecs had the starter located where a bellhousing bolt would have been on the normal Kent pattern.
I need to save this for future use. 
If my new job pulls through, this thread has put all kinds of awesomely bad ideas in my head.
Thank you all for your continued enablement.
That is all, carry on.
Since you want "Challenge"-priced, I would just do a DCX 2.4 NA and boost the piss out of it. Proper "gas" is cheap. Megasquirt it. If it ain't fast enough, a small shot of giggle gas can fix a lot of problems. 
Ranger50 wrote: Since you want "Challenge"-priced, I would just do a DCX 2.4 NA and boost the piss out of it. Proper "gas" is cheap. Megasquirt it. If it ain't fast enough, a small shot of giggle gas can fix a lot of problems.
I get your pick, now as for the rest of the questions...?
In reply to RossD:
That's what I thought but wasn't sure, and why I said it still wouldn't matter because those transaxles aren't going to handle that power level
Now I want to swap a Mazda KL into a Protege.
Nnngh....
Also, does anyone have reasonable and reliable engine/transmission weights for the choices listed thus far? Of course adding a turbo adds weight, so I will take that into consideration.
tuna55 wrote:Ranger50 wrote: Since you want "Challenge"-priced, I would just do a DCX 2.4 NA and boost the piss out of it. Proper "gas" is cheap. Megasquirt it. If it ain't fast enough, a small shot of giggle gas can fix a lot of problems.I get your pick, now as for the rest of the questions...?
350 hp? Or WHP?
A stock SRT turbo 2.4 will get you within spitting distance of 350hp with: upgraded wastegate actuator, good tune, good intercooler and 3" exhaust. This can be done using any DCX 2.4 with a PT turbo/SRT4 bottom end. A neon can easily weigh under 2500 lbs. I'm just sayin'. This setup would boost instantaneously, and make ridiculous tq.
For WHP? You'd need an aftermarket/homemade exhaust manifold and somewhat bigger turbo. That's it.
Same recipe for 400whp.
I used a 1st gen Neon trans on mine - it held the power just fine, and I modified a stock SRT4 clutch to work. If I was building a challenge car, I'd be looking long and hard at 1st gen Neons. Great autoxers in their day, lots of cheap parts, and the turbo 2.4 takes care of that power thing. It would be relatively easy to build a good handling high 11 second car.
Brett_Murphy wrote: Now I want to swap a Mazda KL into a Protege. Nnngh....
Ahem!!
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/yeah-yeah-i-need-to-add-this-to-readers-rides/34254/page1/
Oh, you want a turbo KL Protege?
http://www.streetfire.net/video/protege-klze-turbo-315whp-at-10-psi_699004.htm
njansenv wrote: If I was building a challenge car, I'd be looking long and hard at 1st gen Neons. Great autoxers in their day, lots of cheap parts, and the turbo 2.4 takes care of that power thing. It would be relatively easy to build a good handling high 11 second car.
Don't worry about the car. I am just interested in the engine. I have "other" plans for the car.
I remember seeing that.
I was thinking of this Protege in particular: http://www.copart.com/c2/homeSearch.html?_eventId=getLot&execution=e10s1&lotId=23741961&returnPage=SEARCH_RESULTS
I saw that when I went looking at a Charger somebody mentioned to me. There's also a convertible FC RX-7 for sale at the Raleigh location.
Big mistake going there today, big mistake.
Brett_Murphy wrote: I remember seeing that. I was thinking of this Protege in particular: http://www.copart.com/c2/homeSearch.html?_eventId=getLot&execution=e10s1&lotId=23741961&returnPage=SEARCH_RESULTS
Been done. A few times, actually. There's a blue wagon in Canada that has the swap done. Currently owned by the same guy that stuffed a KLZE into his Festiva.
tuna55 wrote: I get your pick, now as for the rest of the questions...?
I wouldn't be worrying about it. There are more then enough of them to go around if you blow it up. Kinda of like the old 5.0's. You could make 550hp all day long with a pair of twins and if it broke, you just went and got another for some Benjamins, and went on with life until it blew up again.
Ranger50 wrote:tuna55 wrote: I get your pick, now as for the rest of the questions...?I wouldn't be worrying about it. There are more then enough of them to go around if you blow it up. Kinda of like the old 5.0's. You could make 550hp all day long with a pair of twins and if it broke, you just went and got another for some Benjamins, and went on with life until it blew up again.
Those PT turbo motors and SRT4 motors are pricey, I cannot find them in the local junkyard, and we still have not discussed how to control them in a swap. They are rotting on the vine at the moment.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:tuna55 wrote: OK, let's do this: For each of these, what is required to get near or past the 350 HP level. Assuming I weld all exhaust stuff from scrap mandrels and scrounge for junk/used turbos. What is required of the short block? What is the easiest (on a challenge budget) engine management? How close to the edge of hard parts (pistons, rods, etc) are we at this level? What kind of availability are we talking about (The ecotec LSJ is a good starting point, but there is really no way to get into one on a challenge budget)? Mazda KL Ecotec Mazda F2T 4G63T 2.2 Dodge 2.4 DodgeSpeaking to the two that i'm most familiar with, the mazda motors... The F2T is the "easy button." 350whp might be rough to do, simply because of characteristics of the motor itself. (Not the greatest head flow, intake manifold runners too long, etc) However, over 300whp is cake, and it WILL come with over 400wtq. F2T is way faster than HP would suggest. Anyways, to answer your questions: F2T: Leave shortblock stock, it's fine. Couple different options for tuning. Megasquirt, HKS PFC Fcon if you can find one, RX7 460s + FMU setup, or 370-390cc injectors on stock ecu with a hacked VAF. You'd probably want at least a 60trim turbo if you're worried about 350whp. Otherwise... just put something big on it. It'll spool an HX35 without sweating, for example. The motor will not be stressed at this level with a good tune. I actually don't know of ONE F2T that has ever blown up due to too much power. They fail because of bad tuning or lack of maintenance. Availability is decent, there's quite a few Probe GTs in the junkyards. MAKE SURE YOU GRAB THE TRANS TO GO WITH IT. Mazda KL: Leave short block alone again. Big gains to be had porting the heads, though. You'll want to go Megasquirt for sure. 350whp is near the edge of the KL, but seriously... a 300-325whp KL is going to be nutso-fast. Availability is great, at least locally. I can go to either of my self-service yards and have my choice of at least 3-4 on any given day, for $150-$175, trans is another $50.
I still like these options because I can get them at any nearby wrecking yard. F2t vs KL, though. Is the V6 really lighter? I'd obviously have a bunch more turbo plumbing. Which is easier to control? You say they are both close to 350, which is closer? What breaks first on which? What kind of boost are we talking on each?
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