Quickest/Easiest four cylinder at 350 hp for typical challenge motor money - part deux

JtspellS wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

JtspellS wrote: Will have to think of others when more sober lol

NO! Drunk bench racing is the best kind! Keep drinking until you suggest a turbocharger turned into a gas turbine and then stop.

Ok idea, In a .......

Dude, I get the feeling we need to be having this conversation face-face, both of us with a few beers available.

What the frick is that big diesel engine?

I said light and compact, remember, but I brake for weird, so tell me what you're thinking.,

Also, don't worry about what it's going in. I have ideas for that. Good ones. You guys will like if I ever do it.

JohnyHachi6 wrote: Surprised no one mentioned it yet, but I'm thinking Ford 2.3 Turbo. Really cheap if you look around, super over-built, comes in RWD configuration. I think you can probably make 350 hp with just a big turbo, injectors and a megasquirt. The Ford guys say 400 whp on a bone-stock longblock is safe all day long. Lots of transmission options since the T5s will bolt up.

A T5 won't do what I need it to do, I think. I'm okay with only four speeds, though, and I think there are a few good Ford options out there for that.

Not a bad idea, but that engine's a heavy pig, yes?

In reply to Swank Force One:

You lost me at B2600 bellhousing. Why that one and not the B2200 bellhousing?

tuna55 wrote: Not a bad idea, but that engine's a heavy pig, yes?

Haha, beat me too it - yeah I just edited my post to mention that. It's quite small physically though. You could always swap on a Volvo head which will net some bigger hp numbers and save some weight.

pres589 wrote: In reply to Swank Force One: You lost me at B2600 bellhousing. Why that one and not the B2200 bellhousing?

B2600 uses an "R" box with the bigger bell and a pattern that still bolts up. It'll also bolt to the T2 trans. B2200 is smaller and more like Miata strength and forces you to use the smaller and weaker B2200 clutch and flywheel design. B2600 lets you use H Type stuff.

My 93 Miata will be using a B2600 bell and T2 trans to start.

JohnyHachi6 wrote: The Ford guys say 400 whp on a bone-stock longblock is safe all day long. Lots of transmission options since the T5s will bolt up.

I always ignore "good for X hp all day". "All day" usually means "for the 5 seconds that the tires are hooking up at the top end of a dragstrip followed by a half hour wait for the next run". Just about anything will tolerate that.

I'm mixed on T5s. I've swapped out too many broken ones to consider them okay transmissions, and they are NOT cheap. Seems like any time I find one, it's within spitting distance of how much a brand new one costs. Why? Because they break and break and break...

It's also a super small engine.

It's longer and taller than an Audi five-cylinder. Not really "small" in my book...

Knurled wrote:

JohnyHachi6 wrote: The Ford guys say 400 whp on a bone-stock longblock is safe all day long. Lots of transmission options since the T5s will bolt up.

I always ignore "good for X hp all day". "All day" usually means "for the 5 seconds that the tires are hooking up at the top end of a dragstrip followed by a half hour wait for the next run". Just about anything will tolerate that. I'm mixed on T5s. I've swapped out too many broken ones to consider them okay transmissions, and they are NOT cheap. Seems like any time I find one, it's within spitting distance of how much a brand new one costs. Why? Because they break and break and break...

It's also a super small engine.

It's longer and taller than an Audi five-cylinder. Not really "small" in my book...

yes yes and yes. Lemons has taught me that the standard "street strip terror" 400-600 hp engine that will last three seasons without checking the valves will last exactly two stints before spectacularly blowing itself up.

It's okay, this isn't for Lemons. I'm ok with a street driven trim and a "set to kill" mode for the occasional "let's show this Veyron what a four cylinder, $2000 car's taillights look like".

tuna55 wrote: A T5 won't do what I need it to do, I think. I'm okay with only four speeds, though, and I think there are a few good Ford options out there for that.

How about joining the 20th century and going with something with a torque converter and epicyclic gearing?

Manual transmissions... you mean you have a lever sticking up out of the floor that you use to pry gears in and out of mesh? How crude! Next you'll be putting a dial on the steering column so you can adjust the ignition timing to make it easier to hand-crank the engine.

tuna55 wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: In reply to tuna55: T2 trans is an fc rx7 turbo 2 trans. Kia motor is a slightly dumbed down mazda fe3n, the rods are obscenely strong. You'd need to fab mounts, fuel/oil lines, and probably just go megasquirt off the bat.

ok, so F2T plus a RX7 tranny plus megasquirt. Which is cheaper and has more potential, the F2T or the Kia thing?

That's probably a wash. You don't need specifically an F2T, normal F2s are just as strong.

The fe3 is already rwd so ultimately may be slightly easier assuming there's an easy trans solution that will hold on a challenge budget. Buuuuut I have an intake flip kit for the f2t I'd let you borrow to copy.

tuna55 wrote: That's sounds neat, too. Are the tranny and bell hard to come by?

AFAIK the bell is still available new from a chrysler dealer. I haven't seen any MA5s in the u pull it lots but I don't venture over to the gm section much, nor do I think a solstice or sky would end up in them. The colorado/canyon uses the MA5 also, the gearing is different though.

Knurled wrote:

tuna55 wrote: A T5 won't do what I need it to do, I think. I'm okay with only four speeds, though, and I think there are a few good Ford options out there for that.

How about joining the 20th century and going with something with a torque converter and epicyclic gearing? Manual transmissions... you mean you have a lever sticking up out of the floor that you use to pry gears in and out of mesh? How crude! Next you'll be putting a dial on the steering column so you can adjust the ignition timing to make it easier to hand-crank the engine.

A stick, please. I like the ability to adjust the stall speed of my torque converter with my left foot. Plus, if it was good enough for Ronnie Sox, it's good enough for me.

I'll also be rocking a stick axle!!

Well hold up. We mentioned the Audi 5 cylinder...

Why not just use that? It's not huge.

Or... Volvo b230ft? The volvo 2.3 should do 350whp I think.

Orrr... go.old school with a 3TC. Old Corolla 1.8. Loves boost.

The SRT/PT Turbo is going to struggle to make 350hp with the stock turbo with an Enforcer or SST it can be done but really a TD05 or bigger is the right answer.

The 2.3 Ford is a pretty easy one. Start with a 87-88 Turbocoupe engine and computer. At minimum use a T3 from a manual trans 84-86 TC or SVO a slightly larger turbo would be preferred. Use roller cam shaft and valve train from an early 90s Ranger, Port everything a lot the head, lower intake manifold, exhaust manifold (make sure its stamped E6) cut everyting out of the upper intake. Use brown 87-88 TurboCoupe injectors with a nice FPR (ones for 5.0s work) make a bracket to take weight off the fuel rail. Put an open intake and exhaust on and add boost until you reach your goal. Make sure you use a Felpro 1035 headgasket the kit is like $40 at advance auto it really is just about the best.

tuna55 wrote:

JtspellS wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

JtspellS wrote: Will have to think of others when more sober lol

NO! Drunk bench racing is the best kind! Keep drinking until you suggest a turbocharger turned into a gas turbine and then stop.

Ok idea, In a .......

Dude, I get the feeling we need to be having this conversation face-face, both of us with a few beers available. What the frick is that big diesel engine? I said light and compact, remember, but I brake for weird, so tell me what you're thinking., Also, don't worry about what it's going in. I have ideas for that. Good ones. You guys will like if I ever do it.

This my sir is a Detroit diesel 14.5 twin charged 2 cycle engine that is used in the Hemtt military vehicles so you can pick them up in a government auction.

Almost like the one I had in Iraq

Swank Force One wrote: Well hold up. We mentioned the Audi 5 cylinder... Why not just use that? It's not huge.

Heavy? I am guessing. I've never messed with Audis. I am also guessing relatively hard-to-find and support. Not confident, though.

Swank Force One wrote: Or... Volvo b230ft? The volvo 2.3 should do 350whp I think.

Heads make that tough, had one at about 250, and it was OK. I think it's also not "light". Light is good for this recipe.

Swank Force One wrote: Orrr... go.old school with a 3TC. Old Corolla 1.8. Loves boost.

Well this gives up some displacement. I dunno. Tell me about it. Light? Parts easy to find?

JtspellS wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

JtspellS wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

JtspellS wrote: Will have to think of others when more sober lol

NO! Drunk bench racing is the best kind! Keep drinking until you suggest a turbocharger turned into a gas turbine and then stop.

Ok idea, In a .......

Dude, I get the feeling we need to be having this conversation face-face, both of us with a few beers available. What the frick is that big diesel engine? I said light and compact, remember, but I brake for weird, so tell me what you're thinking., Also, don't worry about what it's going in. I have ideas for that. Good ones. You guys will like if I ever do it.

This my sir is a Detroit diesel 14.5 twin charged 2 cycle engine that is used in the Hemtt military vehicles so you can pick them up in a government auction. Almost like the one I had in Iraq

OK, not only are you drunk-posting, but you also served in Iraq? First off, thank you sincerely for your service. Now then, I have to take your suggestions even more seriously. That is a seriously deranged idea that I like very much.

moparman76_69 wrote:

tuna55 wrote: That's sounds neat, too. Are the tranny and bell hard to come by?

AFAIK the bell is still available new from a chrysler dealer. I haven't seen any MA5s in the u pull it lots but I don't venture over to the gm section much, nor do I think a solstice or sky would end up in them. The colorado/canyon uses the MA5 also, the gearing is different though.

Allow me to reference a thread I'd made a longish time ago.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/lm-toyota-transmission-adapting/46163/page1/

It appears that the "Toyota" bellhousing pattern is the Rosetta Stone of engine swapping.

BoneYard_Racing wrote: The SRT/PT Turbo is going to struggle to make 350hp with the stock turbo with an Enforcer or SST it can be done but really a TD05 or bigger is the right answer.

Do is the F2T a better answer here?

BoneYard_Racing wrote: The 2.3 Ford is a pretty easy one. Start with a 87-88 Turbocoupe engine and computer. At minimum use a T3 from a manual trans 84-86 TC or SVO a slightly larger turbo would be preferred. Use roller cam shaft and valve train from an early 90s Ranger, Port everything a lot the head, lower intake manifold, exhaust manifold (make sure its stamped E6) cut everyting out of the upper intake. Use brown 87-88 TurboCoupe injectors with a nice FPR (ones for 5.0s work) make a bracket to take weight off the fuel rail. Put an open intake and exhaust on and add boost until you reach your goal. Make sure you use a Felpro 1035 headgasket the kit is like $40 at advance auto it really is just about the best.

Dude, I may as well build it from scratch. How heavy are these things? I like stupid simple old tech stuff, but how much am I giving up compared to some of the other suggestions in terms of hp and lb?

Swank Force One wrote: Well hold up. We mentioned the Audi 5 cylinder... Why not just use that? It's not huge.

No RWD transmission option. There's a bell available to mate to American racing transmissions but it's spendy.

Before you think "Okay, I'll just use an Audi trans and block off the front diff"... Audi driveshafts spin backwards. Makes it hard to go forwards unless you use an Audi diff and that means you need to go to Inferior Rear Suspension.

JtspellS wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

JtspellS wrote: Will have to think of others when more sober lol

NO! Drunk bench racing is the best kind! Keep drinking until you suggest a turbocharger turned into a gas turbine and then stop.

Ok idea, In a .......

NO no power too heavy unless you are going for the Spy Hunter smoke screen...

tuna55 wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: Well hold up. We mentioned the Audi 5 cylinder... Why not just use that? It's not huge.

Heavy? I am guessing. I've never messed with Audis. I am also guessing relatively hard-to-find and support. Not confident, though.

Swank Force One wrote: Or... Volvo b230ft? The volvo 2.3 should do 350whp I think.

Heads make that tough, had one at about 250, and it was OK. I think it's also not "light". Light is good for this recipe.

Swank Force One wrote: Orrr... go.old school with a 3TC. Old Corolla 1.8. Loves boost.

Well this gives up some displacement. I dunno. Tell me about it. Light? Parts easy to find?

I see the Audi motors pretty often, but not sure what to do for a trans.

The F2T isn't light either, just as a warning, but 350whp will come with over 400wtq. At like... 3500rpm.

The 3tc isnt crazy heavy, very strong, parts cheap on Ebay.

How about VW 1.8T? I don't know a ton about the motor but I seem.to remember it being strong.

Knurled wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: Well hold up. We mentioned the Audi 5 cylinder... Why not just use that? It's not huge.

No RWD transmission option. There's a bell available to mate to American racing transmissions but it's spendy. Before you think "Okay, I'll just use an Audi trans and block off the front diff"... Audi driveshafts spin backwards. Makes it hard to go forwards unless you use an Audi diff and that means you need to go to Inferior Rear Suspension.

Porsche 924 trans.

tuna55 wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: In reply to tuna55: T2 trans is an fc rx7 turbo 2 trans. Kia motor is a slightly dumbed down mazda fe3n, the rods are obscenely strong. You'd need to fab mounts, fuel/oil lines, and probably just go megasquirt off the bat.

ok, so F2T plus a RX7 tranny plus megasquirt. Which is cheaper and has more potential, the F2T or the Kia thing?

Long term- the Fe3 has more potential as it's a known platform and has pretty stupendous support for not having an H or a diamond star on the valve cover. I'm a firm believer that the F2T right now is the cheapest $ to fun quotient available. I have no doubts in my mind that once I get the challenge car done, it will kick my modified ms3's ass and take its lunch money.... in fact I'm counting on it. Assuming I can keep a head on it and keep fuel in it...... it'll see e85+nitrous before too long. You have to remember, these cars make FRIGHTENING amounts of torque. It's not uncommon to see a 30% variance between WHP and TQ numbers on a dyno. IE 300whp/400ft/lbs. It's not normal. Nothing you've ever learned about turbo engines applies to an F2T. Runs rich? Add boost. Runs lean? Add boost. Rod knock? Add boost. Hole in the floor pan? Add boost. These things laugh at conventional turbo wisdom. I mean, I was pretty deep into the DSM scene and know my way around the DISI motors fairly well, and nothing- I mean NOTHING I've ever heard about turbo theory and proper sizing and stuff applies. I suspect once "properly" tuned, I'll see 20+ psi DD status out of a GN turbo strapped to a 235k motor that was confirmed over the weekend to have cross hatching still clearly visible across all 4 cylinders.

Swank Force One wrote: Porsche 924 trans.

That's an Audi trans

Knurled wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: Porsche 924 trans.

That's an Audi trans

Oh, right. My bad!