Front-wheel drive understeers, right? Everybody knows that. Don’t you?
But wait, did you ever drive a 1988 CRX? Ever see PD Cunningham in one of his RealTime Racing Acura Integra Rs? I sure did, in the windshield and the mirrors of my Tri-Point Engineering Mazda6 back in the good ol’ days of World Challenge Touring Car competition. No push.
I'm going to use this column to shamelessly share old World Challenge videos I found on YouTube:
All I will say is watch Minis ruuning at Goodwood
In reply to Tom1200 :
Mini guys would put casters in place of the rear wheels if the rules allowed it.
As noted, the Mini's are a great example of this. I once asked a guy about his mini, and how you keep it from constantly understeering. He said: "I can make it oversteer as much as I want if I set it up right"
Having done some sim racing with racing Mini's, those things are looser than....
Blair's philosophy on FWD car set-up...
"The front third of the car is what matters, the 2nd is where you sit, the third is a trailer the rules unfortunately require you to tow around the course"
"The rules force you to have 4 tires, use all of them"
The world is going away from 1000lb rear springs and urinating dog corner entry poses but still see too many cars being fought around autox courses set up that way.
My neon that was set up for rallycross is a wonderful driving car on the dirt it oversteers just enough to be really nice. By far the best front wheel drive car that I have ever driven I'm very fortunate to have been able to experience it
In reply to Colin Wood :
God I miss Speedvision...
Perhaps I do need to give FWD a chance. I just havent driven one with sporting pretense much.
and one autocross run in celica that had won Solo Nationals... but it was a small lot and the car was on snow tires... Yes, Yes I could make it oversteer. Or Understeer... Or full sideways all wheel drift...
I first noticed FWD (as others have said above) in an old Mini that a cousin vintage raced at Blackhawk Farms and Road America. So thanks for introducing a dose of reality. Or is confirmation bias "the droid I seek"?
YouTuber and (former?) racer Brian Makse often concludes his videos with "and remember, cars don't understeer by themselves."
In reply to pilotbraden :
I recall talking to guys who raced in a neon spec series when the cars were new and I asked "what are you doing to get that oversteer out there?"
One guy simply said "we're all running about 60psi on the rear tires."
I thought "welp, that'll do it." 
Notice that the rear steer used to reduce understeer provides toe OUT. More evidence that your trackside guide is wrong.
CR Hammond
rhammond said:Notice that the rear steer used to reduce understeer provides toe OUT. More evidence that your trackside guide is wrong.
CR Hammond
If your trackside guide is telling to you to toe in the rear to reduce understeer, you need a better guide :)
Beam axle VWs built before the A4 (Mk4) chassis used these weird ramped bushings on the beam so side loads would push the beam forward, giving some more toe-in on the outside corner to offset the toe-out you get from the beam flexing.
About 10-15 years ago, someone realized that you can put those bushings in backwards Maybe people were doing it when the cars were new, too, but that was the first I'd heard of it spoken publicly.
Would that have been legal for Stock class autocross? It's the stock bushings, after all.
aircooled said:As noted, the Mini's are a great example of this. I once asked a guy about his mini, and how you keep it from constantly understeering. He said: "I can make it oversteer as much as I want if I set it up right"
Having done some sim racing with racing Mini's, those things are looser than....
I race against Minis in C-sedan with the Datsun 1200..............it may be a class thing but we all use 4 wheel steering.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to Tom1200 :
Mini guys would put casters in place of the rear wheels if the rules allowed it.
My Scirocco rotates easily and nicely. It only understeers when I screw it up with my driving.
People complain about FWD cars understeering but I complain about my RWD car understeering. I'm sure it feels different, but I've never tracked a FWD car so I'm not sure. With the original setup I could go WOT and steer to slow down.
I never gave FWD a chance as a younger man when I was buying crappy cars and I'm a little sad. My wife has a B4 Passat 2.8 that I think would be super fun on track.
In reply to buzzboy :
I've never had a rear drive car that didn't understeer under power. It's simple physics, you unload the front tires, they will have less grip.
Now, front drive does have the added complication . There was a recent video with Oliver Solberg (Petter Solberg's son) getting coached in tarmac rally driving in a front driver by none other than Sébastien Loeb. Braking technique, corner reading technique, everything. Oliver was actually very close to Seb's times after a little practice. At one point Oliver says everything feels great, but there's still some push at corner exit. Seb just shrugged and said, you'll have that.
I just bought another Peugot 405 Mi16 today. I loved my last one (sadly, wrecked by a friend who I let borrow it).
Zero understeer in totally stock form. If you didn't know it was FWD, you'd swear ot was RWD. My dad commented that it felt like a 4-door E30 M3.
In reply to LanEvo :
Wow! I haven't seen one of those in decades. Congrats on finding one...those were really nice looking cars.
Physics says that FWD is inherently more prone to understeer than RWD all else being equal. But you can still set the chassis up to oversteer. I've always found it amusing when someone praises a FWD car by saying how little it feels like a FWD. On my CRX and classic Mini, it's very clear which end is providing propulsion and I have to change my driving style a fair bit for it.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Man, imagine being able to ask your buddy Sebastien to coach your kid in rally driving. Well done Petter. I'm going to watch that one later.
Gravel road. Left foot braking practice. It does translate to track driving.
I used to be a die hard American muscle car guy. Would autox the crap out of them in frustration because, well, they handled like doo doo in that medium.
Started working at a Honda dealer, bought myself an 8th gen Civic Si 4-door (better handling chassis than the 2-door), took it to an autox, almost set FTD, also said to myself "whoa, this is what a decent handling car feels like!" I was in awe that a FWD had less understeer than my Trans Ams and S197 mustangs of the past. Built a 95 Civic to run in the GRM Challenge. Only race FWD Hondas now. I was sold.
We have zero understeer in the 94 Accord we run in Champcar. Some trial and error and proper setup have helped us get there. A big rear sway bar, slightly stiffer springs, higher tire pressure in the rear, the right alignment, etc. It took some creativity to get the right camber settings up front to keep within the rulebook of Chumpcar but the car handles extremely well, even with the body roll we have, it's stable and does what we tell it too.
I have had to throttle back how aggressive I like the rear end to rotate to accommodate the other drivers in the car who like to have a more neutral feel. Doesn't matter how much I preach that "if the rear end is coming out on you, throttle down, wheel pointed where you want to go, back to your business."
Everything understeers if you dive into a corner too fast.
BA5 said:Everything understeers if you dive into a corner too fast.
You've never driven a Datsun 1200, they oversteer on corner entry in stock trim and especially so if you've overcooked it.
You'll need to log in to post.
