e21 BMW 318/320/323....made in the 70s and basically a less-stylish 2002 with room in the bay to put any e30 engine in with minimal work (M20, M42, etc). An M42 or M20 e21 would certainly be fun and reasonably quick on track.
e21 BMW 318/320/323....made in the 70s and basically a less-stylish 2002 with room in the bay to put any e30 engine in with minimal work (M20, M42, etc). An M42 or M20 e21 would certainly be fun and reasonably quick on track.
tr8todd wrote: So, you want something pre 1980 and you want fast? Here is your recipe. Look for something done, real nice, in the 10 to 12 range. But here's the deal. Find something with a boatload of spares or parts cars. Sell off pieces to bring your cost back down to $6K. For instance, I have a full race BMW 2002. Flared fenders, fiberglass body panels, full cage, fuel cell, accusump, blah blah blah. It has a ton of spares including a close ratio tranny that alone is worth $1500 or more. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of all the room the car and the spares take up. I'd take $10K just to be able to see the back of my garage again. Buyer could sell off parts and easily be under $6K and they would have an insanely fast, insanely cool BMW. Now you and I are probably on different ends of the country, but I'm sure there is stuff like this near you. This time of year there are all kinds of deals. I just bought a mint Range Rover for $1000 because the rich guy that owned it didn't want to deal with an exhaust leak.
+1 for this idea. If not, buy someone's vintage ____ track prepped sports car.
75 Opel Manta with the efi and bigger brakes. Add megasquirt to stock bits and a turbocharger, and/or bore and stroke the 1.9 up to as much as 2.4l. Add 5-speed and whatever race safety bits you need.
sub - $6K, Competitive with fast modern cars on the track, pre-1980
Kind of like the old adage: cheap, fast and reliable. Pick two.....
The only way that I see you meeting all those criteria is if you're real good with the ol' wrenches and engine swapping. Remember, pre-1980, a 6-second 0-60 was a big deal, and that's going to be spanked at most track days.
The good news is that there's talk about track days classing cars by speed potential. That makes a lot of sense to me. After all, speed doesn't kill. Speed differential does.
In reply to Kreb:
To be fair, my performance metric was a stock Miata...
As I said before, I KNOW it's a tall order. Mostly curious if there was anything I was overlooking.
I would say to buy a car that you're going to have fun with, is quick enough to be entertaining, and once you have more resources, can be made FAST! Better that than buying some pie-in-the-sky vehicle that's going to be special....once you get a few more things done on it. The usual suspects: 510, 2002, 142, Z-cars, fairladys, Alfa or Fiat Spyder or even an overlooked car like a 65 or later Corvair would fit the bill.
pointofdeparture wrote: Really I don't even think the Miata engine has much of an advantage over the Fiat twin cam. More valves, but the Fiat was developed for the better part of 30 years (from the 60's into the late 90's) and so there is a heck of a lot of knowledge on how to make them go fast. Guys are getting 200HP NA out of them but I guess they are not terribly streetable at that point. With forced induction the engine made crazy horsepower in the 037 and Delta Integrale, not sure how the transverse parts fit on but it goes to show the potential is there if you throw the right parts and/or enough dollars at it.
the 16v head from the later Fiats and Lancia's can fit if you have room. They are a longer head and if you want to install one into a 124, you need to cut the firewall for it to fit. Should not be a big deal on any other car though
In reply to pointofdeparture:
Get a '79 Fox then.....
irish44j wrote: e21 BMW 318/320/323....made in the 70s and basically a less-stylish 2002 with room in the bay to put any e30 engine in with minimal work (M20, M42, etc). An M42 or M20 e21 would certainly be fun and reasonably quick on track.
I mentioned that a few pages back and got dissed because evidently even a 330 was slow on track. 
pointofdeparture wrote: What about something like a 914? Is 150HP a ridiculous figure from one?
Talking street cars, a running 914 starts at $6000 at the very lowest. I was in the market a year and a half ago, and at $6000, you have to be sitting in your car with a trailer hooked up and six grand in cash when the listing drops, or you'll miss it. $7500 is more like a reasonable price. If you want the fuel injection system not to have been replaced with dual carbs, you're talking $10,000.
pointofdeparture wrote:kb58 wrote: What seems to fit best is a late 1980's Ford Mustang 5.0 that's already set up as a track car. Any street car with a cage in it's going to be almost free, and the Ford will have TONS of fix up parts cheap.How is a late 1980's Mustang pre-1980? Looking for something considered vintage here (if only just).
Fair point, though the body of the original post didn't specify, so I missed it. Okay, make it a 1979 Mustang 5.0.
Skipped from first to last page, but what about C4 vette?
It would be like the toilet paper of track cars. Dirt cheap to buy and once you go through and renew/update the suspension bits, there is no fear of wrecking it since you can unbolt the good stuff and repeat as necessary with a new chassis. If you cant make a Chevy v8 go fast for cheap, just turn in your car-guy card.
The Miata might be the answer, but torque is a different addiction that the Miata dweebs will never discover.
C'mon now, 914s are cheap!
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/5361946663.html
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/5353506810.html
In my region, the best reason for a cheap Porsche is that the P-club has dibs on the last local autocross site. It'd be fun to show up with a clapped out 914 and put the hurt on some six-figure machinery 
NOHOME wrote: Skipped from first to last page, but what about C4 vette? It would be like the toilet paper of track cars. Dirt cheap to buy and once you go through and renew/update the suspension bits, there is no fear of wrecking it since you can unbolt the good stuff and repeat as necessary with a new chassis. If you cant make a Chevy v8 go fast for cheap, just turn in your car-guy card. The Miata might be the answer, but torque is a different addiction that the Miata dweebs will never discover.
Do people even read the TITLE of the thread anymore? Pre-1980, people! Jeez!
In reply to pointofdeparture:
Although it doesn't sound like what you really want, I second the idea of something SBC powered. C3 Vette or 2nd gen F body. Either one of those with smog equipment stripped and subtle modern upgrades to engine and chassis will run respectably fast and not kill the stated budget. Both can benefit from cheap circle track parts, and you have a fighting chance of finding replacement parts anywhere on the continent in case of a breakdown.
I realize that this isn't pre-80, but it's a 924 and they started in 76, so it counts as its a killer deal for someone:
http://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/5348329823.html
924 Carrera GT replica chassis for $4k? Yes please!
Guy on the mercedes forum ran the snowball and motherlode in a r107 280sl, had no problem keeping up with anything he said. He said people were surprised how the mercedes kept in in the fast stuff and that his car was one of the most comfortable, though his car had the suspension gone through. Just something to keep in mind.
benzbaronDaryn wrote: Guy on the mercedes forum ran the snowball and motherlode in a r107 280sl, had no problem keeping up with anything he said. He said people were surprised how the mercedes kept in in the fast stuff and that his car was one of the most comfortable, though his car had the suspension gone through. Just something to keep in mind.
I'm much more interested. I love the R107, but which one would you want, and what would you have to do to it to make it survive a track day? Are the brakes any good?
How hard are you going to drive the car? The brakes on the mercedes are pretty good, I'd probably budget suspension bushings, fuel lines, fuel filter, brakes all around and rebuild all of the brake calipers. Not expensive just time consuming. Then just do a bit of engine maintanence stuff and check for vacuum leaks. After that you have to check the radiator, probably replace all the hoses. And the driveshaft flex discs. Oh an transmission fluid and filter unless you find a manual trans car, they are out there but rare. My car will cruise at 85-90mph all day no problem, if you are driving it real hard I'd try and put a better radiator in it. I guess the radiator from a w126 diesel is supposed to fit and is aluminum so gives better cooling.
The euro m110 is a good engine, the only weakness is it needs valve adjustment every 10-15k miles.
WOW Really Paul? wrote:irish44j wrote: e21 BMW 318/320/323....made in the 70s and basically a less-stylish 2002 with room in the bay to put any e30 engine in with minimal work (M20, M42, etc). An M42 or M20 e21 would certainly be fun and reasonably quick on track.I mentioned that a few pages back and got dissed because evidently even a 330 was slow on track.
lol, I would LOVE to know what 1970s streetable car under $6k would beat an M20B25-swapped (or even M42-swapped) e21 - other than a 2002 with a turbo M10 or something. An e21 with either of those swaps could definitely be built well for $6k (I know, I've done the swap), woudl be a blast to drive, and would be reliable.
Else, go 924 with a late engine (944).
Most of the hive is just doing research to find out if there actually WAS a Miata secretly made in the 1970s ;)
1979 mustang/capri. You get the massive aftermarket and it is vintage under the 79 and older rule. 78 fairmont futura or zephyr z7 also offer the platform and its aftermarket. Cars are reasonably cheap aside from the recent jump in wagon prices.
WOW Really Paul? wrote:Tyler H wrote:I suppose that depends upon the track, but that also could be the driver as well. I held my own when I took the 318ti to a track day at Road America back in '06, I was keeping pace with the Miata crowd, but we were getting blown by on the straights by v8 powered stuffWOW Really Paul? wrote: In reply to Robbie: E21 for a much lower buy in than the 2002 and then stuff a m20 or m42 up front, upgraded brakes, cooling, suspension, & rolling stock. While a m10 car is entertaining, you WILL get lapped the entire day.I think you will get lapped all day in anything slower than an E36 M3 or a 330i. PoD, you said you were a backmarker in your 330i, and that is what I consider a pretty fast car. There is an emerging need for a vintage HPDE class.
Depends on the track and the HPDE organization. There's been a huge horsepower increase at HPDE since 2006. It's a parade of Z06 (3 generations,) 911s, E9x M3s, etc.
It's frustrating (to me, at least) to get blasted in a well-driven low-hp car, by a poorly driven 400hp rocketship that's taking full advantage of traction control and is faster on any line any time. Except where they brake early, early apex, and then disappear into the distance after a very ugly track out.
Not to discourage you from a vintage car, I love them! I wish there were more out there at HPDE. If I were shopping for a vintage track car, I'd get a race car and just do a couple of vintage races a year. Depending on the car and prep, it could still be used for road rally events here and there.
In CA, vintage events often coincide with smog regulations. 1975 and earlier requires a PCV valve and nothing else. Post 1975 and it has to be entirely compliant to the year of manufacture. So if you wanted to run those events in a Mustang, it'd have to be Mustang II or earlier. BTW - 60s ponycars are other possible candidates for the list.
dropstep wrote: 1979 mustang/capri. You get the massive aftermarket and it is vintage under the 79 and older rule. 78 fairmont futura or zephyr z7 also offer the platform and its aftermarket. Cars are reasonably cheap aside from the recent jump in wagon prices.
This.
Check out the video at 8:45 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb5A4zI8q0g&feature=youtu.be
Keeping pace with a Boss 302. I think that's pretty good.
Tyler H wrote: There's been a huge horsepower increase at HPDE since 2006. It's a parade of Z06 (3 generations,) 911s, E9x M3s, etc. It's frustrating (to me, at least) to get blasted in a well-driven low-hp car, by a poorly driven 400hp rocketship that's taking full advantage of traction control and is faster on any line any time. Except where they brake early, early apex, and then disappear into the distance after a very ugly track out.
Agreed, we used to do HPDEs in the late 1980s and 1990s. Back then everyone worked on their own cars and there were very few really fast cars - you did well be driving well. Having recently returned to the events however, things are... different. Now it seems normal to buy a Z06, Porsche, BMW, or something with >400hp. If the car is modified, it's typically by a shop and not the owner. Few seems to work on their cars any more and there's a definite drop in camaraderie, sort of an unspoken "I've got my bad-ass ready-made car here so I don't need any 'help' from you guys." Or that's the impression at least.
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