Recharge your EV in under a minute?

I'm picturing a giant home battery that trickle charges all day off the grid, then unleashes holy hell when the EV docks in the garage.

Keith Tanner wrote: I'm picturing a giant home battery that trickle charges all day off the grid, then unleashes holy hell when the EV docks in the garage.

Charge the car and cook tonight's hot dogs for dinner all in under a minute when you drive into your garage. THE FUTURE IS NOW.

I like this, It's one step closer to overcoming EVs biggest issue. The perfect solution would be to replace the nation's roads with giant sections of TCR track but I don't think that will happen anytime soon seeing as Secretary LaHood keeps blowing me off with form letters "Thanking me for my concern"

http://primove.bombardier.com/application/bus/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QffOR_iZso0

By incorporating high power charging at the most convenient points along bus routes, the PRIMOVE system ensures optimum fleet availability. The wireless charging process is seamlessly integrated into existing operations to allow uninterrupted service without reverting to impractical, unattractive or unaffordable solutions.

The concept of high power opportunity charging allows for a battery design that can be much smaller and lighter, thereby extending battery life and reducing energy consumption. Most importantly, the vehicle can now carry its maximum number of passengers instead of the extra weight of heavy batteries.

The lean charging infrastructure makes it quick and easy to install. The “invisible” nature of the system keeps maintenance costs low by minimising wear and tear, while ruling out the risk of vandalism. And thanks to the vehicle detection function, the process is fully automated and requires no special intervention from the driver.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: Which is why, short of swapping batteries like propane cylinders, EVs will never fly.

Strongly disagree. I think that EVs are the future and charging stations outside the home won't be around for long, and battery swapping is an idea that will seem hilariously silly in the future (outside of racing).

The only problem is battery capacity. You can transfer plenty enough power overnight from your house's regular, plain-jane electrical system to drive your car around at street-legal speeds all day long. The problem is that you could currently run down your battery with just a few hours of solid driving. It can't store enough. Up the storage and the only concern will be if the electrical grid can supply enough energy for everybody's EVs.

GameboyRMH wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: Which is why, short of swapping batteries like propane cylinders, EVs will never fly.

Strongly disagree. I think that EVs are the future and charging stations outside the home won't be around for long, and battery swapping is an idea that will seem hilariously silly in the future (outside of racing). The only problem is battery capacity. You can transfer plenty enough power overnight from your house's regular, plain-jane electrical system to drive your car around at street-legal speeds all day long. The problem is that you could currently run down your battery with just a few hours of solid driving. It can't store enough. Up the storage and the only concern will be if the electrical grid can supply enough energy for everybody's EVs.

I agree with you... I also think that the "1 minute charging" thing will seem silly. People will wonder, why would you need to charge in one minute? It's a perspective / habit shift. You don't spend your life in your car - at least most of us don't - so you don't need it to be ready for a 300 mile trip every 1 minutes.

YES there are long trips, yes there are people that drive more than a thousand miles a day every day but those are the exceptions. I think we'll eventually see a reversal with the new fossil fueled cars being the exception and electric or similar being the rule.

Xceler8x wrote: I'm picturing a giant home battery that trickle charges all day off the grid, then unleashes holy hell when the EV docks in the garage.

Is there any reason this can't be done? Besides relatively speaking, IT'S DANGEROUS?

HiTempguy wrote:

Xceler8x wrote: I'm picturing a giant home battery that trickle charges all day off the grid, then unleashes holy hell when the EV docks in the garage.

Is there any reason this can't be done? Besides relatively speaking, IT'S DANGEROUS?

Not really, but we have to clarify what 'dangerous' means.

0000 cable (1/2") is rated to 300 amps. So let's stick with that. If you want to charge a 24 kW.h (Leaf) battery in a minute, you have to provide roughly 24 kW. At 300 amps, that's 4800 volts before accounting for losses. An hour could work nicely with some seriously expensive hardware, but a minute is stretching it a bit.

tuna55 wrote: Not really, but we have to clarify what 'dangerous' means. 0000 cable (1/2") is rated to 300 amps. So let's stick with that. If you want to charge a 24 kW.h (Leaf) battery in a minute, you have to provide roughly 24 kW. At 300 amps, that's 4800 volts before accounting for losses. An hour could work nicely with some seriously expensive hardware, but a minute is stretching it a bit.

That's why I said "relatively speaking", and that is exactly the answer I was looking for. In reality, the solution is to have a system such that batteries can be swapped, as many others have said before.

Similar to Keith's observation about a charging station at home, refueling stations could be continuously keeping a battery/capacitor/flywheel/whatever bank charging at all times, thereby keeping a local supply capable of a quick charge for a car pulling up to refuel.

On the topic of current only traveling on the surface of a wire, that's only true for high-frequency AC stuff, and more true and frequency rises. Google "skin effect".

tuna55 wrote: An hour could work nicely with some seriously expensive hardware, but a minute is stretching it a bit.

The Leaf can already do 80% in half an hour from a quick-charge station, they warn that it's bad for the battery's longevity though.

It's an interesting bit of perspective on the amount of energy we use as gasoline when you start contemplating the electrical equivalent of what gets pumped in in a minute or two...

And keep in mind that ICEs turn 2/3 to 3/4 of the energy in that gasoline straight into waste heat, while an electric motor is 90%+ efficient.

dculberson wrote: The question is: where would you get that kind of current availability? For example, the Chevy Volt has a 16.5 Kwh battery. That means it can deliver 16,500 watts for an hour. If you wanted to charge that battery in one minute that would mean providing almost a megawatt of power for that minute. At 220v that's 4,500 amps. Can someone sanity check my calculations there? I feel like it's impossible that the power and current would be that high.

^ This

It's an energy in vs energy out thing. Transferring that much energy in such a short amount of time is going to take a MASSIVE amount of power.

GameboyRMH wrote: And keep in mind that ICEs turn 2/3 to 3/4 of the energy in that gasoline straight into waste heat, while an electric motor is 90%+ efficient.

This is VERY true, but it doesn't matter for what we're talking about. A 20 gallon gas tank, if my iffy calcs are correct, has about 720 kwh capacity while the Leaf's battery pack has 24. This means that even though the gas only gets 1/3 utilized to spin the wheels, it's still on the order of 10x.

GameboyRMH wrote: And keep in mind that ICEs turn 2/3 to 3/4 of the energy in that gasoline straight into waste heat, while an electric motor is 90%+ efficient.

FWIW, 24kwhr= 86.4MJ.

(math wise, thats 24kW in an hour, or 24kW*3600seconds= 86.4MJ since a watt = joule/second)

And since a kilo of gas is roughly half that in terms of energy, "correcting" for efficiencies, the 24kW-hr is about 6kg of gas for a car. Or roughly 2 gallons.

(gas is about 43MJ/kg heating value. So you'd need 2kg to be the same 86MJ, and then x3 for effieincies, 6kg fuel, density wise (~.75kg/l) is 8l of fuel, and very roughly 4l to a gal, call it 2 gallons.)

So figure how much energy it takes to move a car the equivalent of 10 gal of fuel. Charging speed is very important, but so is storage.

None the less, this is one of a lot very important steps in electric cars.

alfadriver wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: And keep in mind that ICEs turn 2/3 to 3/4 of the energy in that gasoline straight into waste heat, while an electric motor is 90%+ efficient.

FWIW, 24kwhr= 86.4MJ. (math wise, thats 24kW in an hour, or 24kW*3600seconds= 86.4MJ since a watt = joule/second) And since a kilo of gas is roughly half that in terms of energy, "correcting" for efficiencies, the 24kW-hr is about 6kg of gas for a car. Or roughly 2 gallons. (gas is about 43MJ/kg heating value. So you'd need 2kg to be the same 86MJ, and then x3 for effieincies, 6kg fuel, density wise (~.75kg/l) is 8l of fuel, and very roughly 4l to a gal, call it 2 gallons.) So figure how much energy it takes to move a car the equivalent of 10 gal of fuel. Charging speed is very important, but so is storage. None the less, this is one of a lot very important steps in electric cars.

I think the moral of all of this math is that gasoline is a remarkably stable, safe and dense energy storage device. It will be very hard to replace.

dculberson wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: Which is why, short of swapping batteries like propane cylinders, EVs will never fly.

Strongly disagree. I think that EVs are the future and charging stations outside the home won't be around for long, and battery swapping is an idea that will seem hilariously silly in the future (outside of racing). The only problem is battery capacity. You can transfer plenty enough power overnight from your house's regular, plain-jane electrical system to drive your car around at street-legal speeds all day long. The problem is that you could currently run down your battery with just a few hours of solid driving. It can't store enough. Up the storage and the only concern will be if the electrical grid can supply enough energy for everybody's EVs.

I agree with you... I also think that the "1 minute charging" thing will seem silly. People will wonder, why would you need to charge in one minute? It's a perspective / habit shift. You don't spend your life in your car - at least most of us don't - so you don't need it to be ready for a 300 mile trip every 1 minutes. YES there are long trips, yes there are people that drive more than a thousand miles a day every day but those are the exceptions. I think we'll eventually see a reversal with the new fossil fueled cars being the exception and electric or similar being the rule.

Exactly, it's a paradigm shift in mentality, and we're seeing it with cell phones. We have no problem plugging in teh cell phone when needed and leaving it plugged in long enough to use it all day. It doesn't have to be charged for a week of use at a time, just for your daily activities. EVs can do that NOW. If people just used them the way they use their phones, we could swap out half the current fleet of cars with EVs right now and no one would be inconvenienced, even charging at home.

For other people, a car like the Volt would be perfect. An EV for 90%+ of the daily routine and a gas powered car for those longer trips when necessary.

"If people just used them the way they use their phones, we could swap out half the current fleet of cars with EVs right now and no one would be inconvenienced...."

Well, as long as we're doing math - there's the little matter of paying for them. That might inconvenience one or two people. But, if you're willing to take other people's money to pay for it - or, better yet, simply put it on the country's 'credit card' and take money from people who haven't been born yet - no problem!

Chris_V wrote:

dculberson wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote:

Kenny_McCormic wrote: Which is why, short of swapping batteries like propane cylinders, EVs will never fly.

Strongly disagree. I think that EVs are the future and charging stations outside the home won't be around for long, and battery swapping is an idea that will seem hilariously silly in the future (outside of racing). The only problem is battery capacity. You can transfer plenty enough power overnight from your house's regular, plain-jane electrical system to drive your car around at street-legal speeds all day long. The problem is that you could currently run down your battery with just a few hours of solid driving. It can't store enough. Up the storage and the only concern will be if the electrical grid can supply enough energy for everybody's EVs.

I agree with you... I also think that the "1 minute charging" thing will seem silly. People will wonder, why would you need to charge in one minute? It's a perspective / habit shift. You don't spend your life in your car - at least most of us don't - so you don't need it to be ready for a 300 mile trip every 1 minutes. YES there are long trips, yes there are people that drive more than a thousand miles a day every day but those are the exceptions. I think we'll eventually see a reversal with the new fossil fueled cars being the exception and electric or similar being the rule.

Exactly, it's a paradigm shift in mentality, and we're seeing it with cell phones. We have no problem plugging in teh cell phone when needed and leaving it plugged in long enough to use it all day. It doesn't have to be charged for a week of use at a time, just for your daily activities. EVs can do that NOW. If people just used them the way they use their phones, we could swap out half the current fleet of cars with EVs right now and no one would be inconvenienced, even charging at home. For other people, a car like the Volt would be perfect. An EV for 90%+ of the daily routine and a gas powered car for those longer trips when necessary.

I was going to say what he ^ said, but in a different way.

I can't drop what I am doing and replace my 12 year old car with a new 20k electric car. Not many can. Even if the payback period is as cut and dry as it looks on paper, it's not affordable.

Not to mention, electric cars, in my opinion, are bad for the environment, but that's a different thread.

tuna55 wrote: Not to mention, electric cars, in my opinion, are bad for the environment, but that's a different thread.

I don't see how. There's only battery recycling and the electricity production to worry about vs. a normal car, where there's the entire oil extraction and refinement process and then the ongoing emissions from running. If an electric car is running on 100% "non-clean" coal power or close to it (and I've researched this, it's only possible in a couple of places in China and the US), it can be worse than a gasoline ICE, but generally they're MUCH cleaner.

GameboyRMH wrote:

tuna55 wrote: Not to mention, electric cars, in my opinion, are bad for the environment, but that's a different thread.

I don't see how. There's only battery recycling and the electricity production to worry about vs. a normal car, where there's the entire oil extraction and refinement process and then the ongoing emissions from running. If an electric car is running on 100% "non-clean" coal power or close to it (and I've researched this, it's only possible in a couple of places in China and the US), it can be worse than a gasoline ICE, but generally they're MUCH cleaner.

Even though it's for a different thread.

What about the refinement of the materials used in batteries? Current materials are expensive because they are very not common- and the extraction is difficult. Even for small amount precious metals, the refinement of those can be incredibly dangerous to the environment. This is a totally different scale to that even.

Battery recycling is only effective if it's just replacement. This is an expasion of many orders of magnitude.

IMHO.

Now, if someone can come up with a battery based of primarily iron and aluminum alloys, then we'd be talking.

alfadriver wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote:

tuna55 wrote: Not to mention, electric cars, in my opinion, are bad for the environment, but that's a different thread.

I don't see how. There's only battery recycling and the electricity production to worry about vs. a normal car, where there's the entire oil extraction and refinement process and then the ongoing emissions from running. If an electric car is running on 100% "non-clean" coal power or close to it (and I've researched this, it's only possible in a couple of places in China and the US), it can be worse than a gasoline ICE, but generally they're MUCH cleaner.

Even though it's for a different thread. What about the refinement of the materials used in batteries? Current materials are expensive because they are very not common- and the extraction is difficult. Even for small amount precious metals, the refinement of those can be incredibly dangerous to the environment. This is a totally different scale to that even. Battery recycling is only effective if it's just replacement. This is an expasion of many orders of magnitude. IMHO. Now, if someone can come up with a battery based of primarily iron and aluminum alloys, then we'd be talking.

Eric nailed it. Doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion, though.

tuna55 wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote: And keep in mind that ICEs turn 2/3 to 3/4 of the energy in that gasoline straight into waste heat, while an electric motor is 90%+ efficient.

This is VERY true, but it doesn't matter for what we're talking about. A 20 gallon gas tank, if my iffy calcs are correct, has about 720 kwh capacity while the Leaf's battery pack has 24. This means that even though the gas only gets 1/3 utilized to spin the wheels, it's still on the order of 10x.

FWIW, I think that observation was in response to my tangential comment about the scale of energy involved in daily use of a car. Totally tangential, but I thought this discussion provided an interesting sense of scale which was worth noting.

.