Reclaiming r134a

My new 1990 miata parts car has been converted to r134a, and still blows cold. What do I do to empty it?
I don't want to vent it into the atmosphere.

Joey

Why not?

Dr. Hess wrote: Why not?

Its illegal for one, and bad for the environment.

I get the feeling you dont believe that last part though...

Joey

R12 was claimed to be bad for the environment, and R134a was supposed to be its more eco-friendly replacement. Release it and see if you get a hole in the ozone above your house.

Do your research, Joey. It's not illegal for you to blow a charge, unless you are being paid by someone to do that. Of course, don't listen to advice on teh 1ntr4w3b, yo. When you get your EPA freon license thingie, you'll read that R134A shouldn't be released because "it's a greenhouse gas" like the CO2 that you are exhaling even as you read this.

And let's not even get into the R12 discussion again. Given that the guy that got a Nobel Prize in Chemistry or whatever for coming up with a reaction that showed R12 to be detrimental to ozone later said that it didn't work that way and he was wrong. I think he kept the money, though.

Weird I took an atmospheric chemistry class and they talked about how CFC's catalyse ozone destruction in the atmospere, never heard it was recanted. I think it involve chlorine free radicals(not leftists on the street). The problem is CFC's are so stable they can make it into the upper atmostphere where the ozone is.

Hess, I did do my research, but just like on the Internet, or 1ntr4w3b, as you doctors seem to call it, there are people who don't know what they are talking about. When I worked at a heating and cooling supplier, they told me it was illegal for me to release r134a into the atmosphere. Also, just today, not 6 hours ago I asked the cooling repair guy who came to repair our walkin at the restaurant and he also said it's illegal to release it. I suppose these guys are wrong, especially cause some guy on the internet, no, 1ntr4w3b, told me so. But you may be right, I don't know. I always thought 134a was still bad for the environment to release, just not as bad as r12. Maybe I had some wrong information. And on a different note, what do you care if someone recanted but still kept the noble prize money? I thought all you conservatives hated the noble peace prize?
I'm not sure what your problem is with me Hess, but I suppose I started this with (what I thought was) a tongue in cheek remark about you not beleiving in something being bad for the environment. Sorry. I don't want any problems with anybody, in either real life, or the Internet. Sorry, 1ntr4w3b.

Joey

Might be worth checking if there's a mobile car aircon servicing person around where you live and call them to see how much it would cost to evacuate the system?

IIRC the refrigerants can be recycled so it might not be an expensive undertaking to do so. And yes, I'm also one of these weird people who think that maybe you shouldn't just release the gas into the atmosphere, no matter if it's legal or not.

R134a isn't cheap. You might try calling a couple A/C shops and seeing if they'll buy it from you. They would have the right equipment to extract it.

Jay wrote: R134a isn't cheap. You might try calling a couple A/C shops and seeing if they'll buy it from you. They would have the right equipment to extract it.

QFT. Grassroots solution.. don't give it away or throw it away.. sell it and buy a trick air filter for your Challenge car with the funds.

Clean air is good air.

When you worked at a heating and cooling supplier, it was illegal to blow a charge. It is also illegal for the guy working on your system to blow the charge.

However, if you're not working at a heating and cooling business, just working on your own car and not being paid, then things are different. If you'll read my note above where I said: "unless you are being paid by someone" then you'll see the difference.

I don't care if he kept the money from the interest on dynamite royalties. I could care less. The point being that the politics (MONEY) involved in this has twisted you young'uns up so that you'll believe anything these idiots tell you without thinking it through, as long as it's presented properly. Global warming, CFC's damaging the ozone layer, etc. being just a couple examples of the past 20 years. When the guy that got the Nobel (dynamite) prize for thinking up a way for R12 to damage ozone then years later says he was wrong and it didn't do that, but somehow that little part gets missed in the text books, you need to think why that might be. Then start following the money. Oh, and R134a has no CFC's. Yes, clean air is good and no one wants to live in New Jersey, just don't piss on my boot and tell me it's raining, as they say in Texas.

The Nobel Peace Prize has been a joke for a very long time. Arafat gets it while actively killing Jews, for example. Bet he laughed good on that one, and bought some more dynamite with the prize money.

Isn't r134a an HCFC? So it would still have chlorofluorocarbons.

One professor at my alma mater got the nobel prize for showing the reaction that catalyzed ozone destruction over the poles. I cannot say whather it is true on not, and can't even remember the reactions. I think it was an NO catalyzed reaction which occurred on the surface of ice crystal in the environment. To assert that CFCs in general are harmless to the environment, I need to see some citation.

Dr. Hess wrote: When you worked at a heating and cooling supplier, it was illegal to blow a charge. It is also illegal for the guy working on your system to blow the charge. However, if you're not working at a heating and cooling business, just working on your own car and not being paid, then things are different. If you'll read my note above where I said: "unless you are being paid by someone" then you'll see the difference. I don't care if he kept the money from the interest on dynamite royalties. I could care less. The point being that the politics (MONEY) involved in this has twisted you young'uns up so that you'll believe anything these idiots tell you without thinking it through, as long as it's presented properly. Global warming, CFC's damaging the ozone layer, etc. being just a couple examples of the past 20 years. When the guy that got the Nobel (dynamite) prize for thinking up a way for R12 to damage ozone then years later says he was wrong and it didn't do that, but somehow that little part gets missed in the text books, you need to think why that might be. Then start following the money. Oh, and R134a has no CFC's. Yes, clean air is good and no one wants to live in New Jersey, just don't piss on my boot and tell me it's raining, as they say in Texas. The Nobel Peace Prize has been a joke for a very long time. Arafat gets it while actively killing Jews, for example. Bet he laughed good on that one, and bought some more dynamite with the prize money.

Thanks for generalizing all of us "younguns". I do try to think when I beleive something, and I just talked to my friend who owns several johnstone supplies who said it is a 50k fine, potentially for anyone to release it. And I never said I was a Nobel prize fan. I just said I figured you were not. I love when you "old guys" generalize all of us "younguns"... I get the feeling all you beleive about us is what you see in the media. Thanks for the confidence.

Joey

I heard europe is stopping R134 and going to something new. Cannot confirm with hard data though.

In reply to Dr. Hess:

Dearest Dr. Hess Why not insert your r134a venting pipe into your personal exhaust and filter it yourself! It would be beneficial to the Global community, especially if it caused you to perish! You might have had your life, but you obviously don;t care for the future of generations to come!

OLD FART!!

I'm an HVAC design engineer. The current industry thinking is that 134a may be more dangerous to the environment than R-12. Here's the thing - NOBODY KNOWS! So play it safe and DON'T blow it into the atmosphere. Any A/C shop will be glad to reclaim it for you. I'm not a radical environmentalist, but Hess's advice is just plain ignorant.

bravenrace wrote: I'm an HVAC design engineer. The current industry thinking is that 134a may be more dangerous to the environment than R-12. Here's the thing - NOBODY KNOWS! So play it safe and DON'T blow it into the atmosphere. Any A/C shop will be glad to reclaim it for you. I'm not a radical environmentalist, but Hess's advice is just plain ignorant.

You do realize that you proved lots of Hess's points by saying the stuff that was designed to save us from the evils of R12 is now being considered evil? If you want a "Follow the money" type conspiracy, isn't it about time for the patent on 134a to run out? Tin foil hat on!

I'm just telling you the truth. Hess's advice I was refering to is to dump it into the atmosphere. That's stupid, because we don't know for a fact that 134a isn't harmful to the atmosphere. That's the flaw in his post. He's makes statements as though they are fact, but in reality it's what he believes. For instance, global warming does exist. How do you think we came out of the ice age? The real question is whether or not we are impacting it, and I am as skeptical as anyone about that. Tin hats are for people on the outside that believe conspiracy theories, which I don't have to since I'm part of the industry. I'm on several SAE sub-commitees that are dealing with this issue right now. We are constantly testing new alternative refrigerants. R134a was never intended to be a permanent replacement - Just a stop gap. If you think that work on an alternative to 134a is a new thing, then you are uninformed. Just a couple years ago the leading candidate to take the place of 134a was C02. The fact is, when it comes to environmental issues, governments tend to jump too soon, before enough is known about the issue.

Joey a good a/c repair shop should be able to pump down your system without a running engine. Can you get it to them?

there- no political content, just a straight answer for someone who does no want to vent the R134a to the atmosphere.

Eric

bravenrace wrote: ............The fact is, when it comes to environmental issues, governments tend to jump too soon, before enough is known about the issue.

And we all go gaga over the newest claimed threat to our existence and blast anyone who might think the dangers are a bit overstated.

alfadriver wrote: Joey a good a/c repair shop should be able to pump down your system without a running engine. Can you get it to them? there- no political content, just a straight answer for someone who does no want to vent the R134a to the atmosphere. Eric

Is it possible to do something like this at home and then transport the container you dumped/pushed it to to the AC shop?

And before we all go gaga overwhatever, we CAN also focus on the original question- how to pump down the R134a system and not vent to the air.

No real point in arguing why, I think he's made up his mind to do it that way.

or start a new thread in the off topic area.

MrJoshua wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Joey a good a/c repair shop should be able to pump down your system without a running engine. Can you get it to them? there- no political content, just a straight answer for someone who does no want to vent the R134a to the atmosphere. Eric

Is it possible to do something like this at home and then transport the container you dumped/pushed it to to the AC shop?

Having seen the units, in theory, yes. But I don't know if there are mobile A/C "shops".... hmm. idea for a new small business.... mobile a/c repair.

But for a grassroots kind of effort- there are vacuum pumps out there, and there are cannisters out there. What I don't know is if you can put them together to properly recover via a DYI set up. My first step there would be google... (shrug)

bravenrace wrote: I'm an HVAC design engineer. The current industry thinking is that 134a may be more dangerous to the environment than R-12. Here's the thing - NOBODY KNOWS!

Actually it was known, its just nobody (the liberal press) would pass it on. I talked with a Voced auto mechanics teacher at a high school back in the 1980s who was livid over this. Believe me, he knew all about it. But as you stated nobody seems to know or care it. BTW... R134a is much more toxic than R12.

One of the odd things I wonder about is Dupont's role in this whole R12 vs R134a scenario . Dupont firmly supported dropping R-12 while they were one of the largest producers. And even more strange, they chose not to make all they could up the last date to manufacture it. That seems to go against common business practices. I doubt it was for the good of the land. It sure would have helped the little man maintain his AC for a more reasonable cost if they had. Eventually the need for R12 would have disappeared through attrition of the vehicles that use it (except of the oddball like me who keep them forever).

Dr. Hess wrote: Do your research, Joey. It's not illegal for you to blow a charge, unless you are being paid by someone to do that.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2004-03-12/pdf/04-3817.pdf

It has never been legal to intentionally vent to the atmosphere, even when doing it on your own equipment or being unpaid for the service.

When you get your EPA freon license thingie, you'll read that R134A shouldn't be released because "it's a greenhouse gas" like the CO2 that you are exhaling even as you read this.

No, it warns of it being a stratospheric ozone depleter. That's a very different chemistry.

Given that the guy that got a Nobel Prize in Chemistry or whatever for coming up with a reaction that showed R12 to be detrimental to ozone later said that it didn't work that way and he was wrong.

One would presume you are talking about Frank Rowland, who with Mario Molina and Paul Crutzen won the 1995 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for their work. It was joint and colaborative work by all three.

No where have I ever seen them refute their work or findings. Not in publications or at presentations.

Sorry doc, but in this thread, you sound like a Fox news spin doctor. You don't seem to have gotten anything right.