Remembering Pontiac and 2009

alfadriver wrote:

oldeskewltoy wrote:

Javelin wrote:

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: What had Buick made in recent years, that wasn't available in another brand, that justified them staying around? The LaCrosse?

FTFY Honestly, you could substitute any GM brand in that statement. They were all E36 M3 in 2009. Uncle Sam should have let the bastards fold.

20/20 hindsight.... wish they had let some of those banks fold too....

in hindsight, I'm glad they stayed. Saved us, too. BTW, it's interesting the want to punish so many for the deeds of so few. Sucks that Pontiac and Mercury are gone.... But for Mercury- they had no identification. Not that Lincoln does, other than higher profit margins.

I should have emphasized SOME... as an example to the rest...... as in Tsun Tzu, Ho Lu, and his concubines......

Tom_Spangler wrote:

EDT wrote:

rslifkin wrote:

Nick (LUCAS) Comstock wrote: solstice coupe.

Also known as the Saturn Sky.

They never made a Sky coupe from the factory.

And they made about 6 Solstice coupes. Not enough to make a difference.

They made over 1200....around half were GXPs. We bought a new GXP coupe and took delivery after Pontiac had got the axe. It was a strange time because no one could tell us if the car had or was even going to be built......it was tough to even talk them into letting me give a deposit and take their one allocation. They actually had a list of people that wanted it but they finally caved to me and took a deposit by CC over the phone.

The Solstice and Sky twins were due for a refresh in 2010/11 I believe. They were going to the (now-mothballed) Alpha-mini platform. It would be nice to see Chevy or Buick dust it off and build us another Miata and FRS/BRZ competitor. The Z0K solstices kicked tail at the SCCA runoffs in their respective classes (SSB and T2).

I was a Pontiac buyer in the 60s and 70s: 65 GTO, 68 GTO convertible(new), hate to admit it, but 74 GTO and a 75 Trans Am (new). After GM started building same cars with different badges I lost interest. One the fastest/scariest cars I have ever driven was a 70 Trans Am Super Duty 455 owned by sister in law. Both hands on the wheel at all times when accelerating.

Dad was a Pontiac guy since '55, my birth ride home. I remember the '61 Catalina more as I grew followed by a '65 Catalina, first time over a hunnerd... something, something about a 389. '71 Catalina next, I was a car guy by then, took my driver test w/ that boat. My first time driving over a hunnerd. That car w/ the 350 went 205K miles before trade-in w/ nothing but routine maintenance, brakes, exhausts and one water pump, heads were never off that engine... kinda unheard of then. Dad ordered a '77 GP w/ a 4-speed, I remember the night the factory called to try to convince him on an automatic... and he caved. That was still one nice car. Dad switched to Buicks in '81, mostly on account of his brother the Buick guy. Unc owned some damn nice Wildcats and later LeSabres. Dad is still a Buick guy w/ a new '14 Verano at 92 y/o. I likes it too, still miss the Ponchos tho.

oldeskewltoy wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

oldeskewltoy wrote:

Javelin wrote:

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: What had Buick made in recent years, that wasn't available in another brand, that justified them staying around? The LaCrosse?

FTFY Honestly, you could substitute any GM brand in that statement. They were all E36 M3 in 2009. Uncle Sam should have let the bastards fold.

20/20 hindsight.... wish they had let some of those banks fold too....

in hindsight, I'm glad they stayed. Saved us, too. BTW, it's interesting the want to punish so many for the deeds of so few. Sucks that Pontiac and Mercury are gone.... But for Mercury- they had no identification. Not that Lincoln does, other than higher profit margins.

I should have emphasized SOME... as an example to the rest...... as in Tsun Tzu, Ho Lu, and his concubines......

The problem is how many does it take until the jenga game goes down?

How many banks could the system really deal with until total collapse?

How much of GM or Chrysler could go down before all more go? Not just Ford, but everyone who makes cars in the US?

The fact that it IS a Jenga game is a problem, for sure. But the bank situation hurt us badly, as we could not get a bank to let us loan money to sell cars- even IF there was a market.

There are lot of parts in the system.

What really needs to happen is to make the system more robust. For the car industry- the focus has change from selling the most cars to making the most money- which is good. It's a lot easier to deal with downturns when your profits are reduced vs. losses increase.

In reply to Cotton:

6, 600, 1200- all of which is totally irrelevant to GM. At least in that kind of sales segments.

Actually, in that segment, it probably hurts until it hits well over 10,000. So 6, 600, 1200 are all the same thing.

buick was saved because China did and still loves the brand. They make tons of money there. Mercury=not relevant Pontiac = not making money and rebadged cars. Oldsmobile = not making money and really not relavent.

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: buick was saved because China did and still loves the brand. They make tons of money there. Mercury=not relevant Pontiac = not making money and rebadged cars. Oldsmobile = not making money and really not relavent.

A lot of us thought Mercury should be what Mazda is. Upscale and sporty. Put a 2.3l in the Miata, PRHT only, style, call it a Mercury. Do that kind of thing across the line.

That's what we were TOLD it should be. Instead, it was a lightly styled F.

Where are the people with real vision???

There is space for Pontiac, Olds, and Mercury if vision was let to take a car to production and actually find the people they want to buy them.... Maybe that's for the minor rant thread.

alfadriver wrote: There is space for Pontiac, Olds, and Mercury if vision was let to take a car to production and actually find the people they want to buy them.... Maybe that's for the minor rant thread.

Yes, I agree.. But it's all about the product. You can't continue to turn out rehashes of vanilla mobiles and continue people to fork over dollars when others provide a much more compelling value proposition.

Platform sharing been goin' on forever, that's understandable but the brand rebadging in the 70's-80's was the first shot in the foot of Buick and Olds. Before that each division had their own distinct identity and following. One rebadging example I prolly remember best was the Nova/ Omega/ Ventura/ Apollo... mostly indistinguishable at 50'. So much for the sins of GM... and there are many but it was the banking system despite prior warnings, even congressional that screwed the pooch.

In reply to fasted58:

Gm shoulda offed those brands a while ago or done something interesting, but they were content to bleed them dry of revenue.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Cotton: 6, 600, 1200- all of which is totally irrelevant to GM. At least in that kind of sales segments. Actually, in that segment, it probably hurts until it hits well over 10,000. So 6, 600, 1200 are all the same thing.

Egg-zacktly. The Solstice coupe was an insignificant blip to GM.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Cotton: 6, 600, 1200- all of which is totally irrelevant to GM. At least in that kind of sales segments. Actually, in that segment, it probably hurts until it hits well over 10,000. So 6, 600, 1200 are all the same thing.

I wasn't talking about what it meant to GM. I was just trying to get some more accurate numbers out there for anyone that cared.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine:

And the answer is Roger B. Smith, king of bean counters.

I've always wondered how much of the decision to shutter an automobile division in this country is influenced by the need to reduce the number of dealerships. And there are very few ways to force a dealership to close.

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: In reply to fasted58: Gm shoulda offed those brands a while ago or done something interesting, but they were content to bleed them dry of revenue.

Yep. One or the other:

1) Give the brands actual identity, distinct enough to be worthwhile

2) Shut down the brand

GM chose neither until the decision was forced. I wish there had been a way to force option 1, but 2 is much easier.

alfadriver wrote: A lot of us thought Mercury should be what Mazda is. Upscale and sporty. Put a 2.3l in the Miata, PRHT only, style, call it a Mercury. Do that kind of thing across the line. That's what we were TOLD it should be. Instead, it was a lightly styled F.

The Mercuries also usually had an inch longer trunk, so they were technically bigger cars...

Lifelong Pontiac owner here, I've continuously owned at least one of them since 1979; currently have a '61 Bonneville. The brand had been in the doldrums for many years but it seemed they were just coming out of that when GM axed the brand. As mentioned above, GM pretty much didn't have a choice, based on the demands from the government.

outasite wrote: One the fastest/scariest cars I have ever driven was a 70 Trans Am Super Duty 455

That would have been either a 1970 Ram Air car, or a 1973-1974 SD455.

You're all wrong. Pontiac died in 1981 when they stopped puting Pontiac engines in Pontiacs.

I do think RWD would have changed Pontiac's fate if it had come earlier. Rebadged Aussie's came too little, too late. But go back to the early 2000s when the last Grand Am GTs released. If those cars had been RWD I think a lot of things would have been different. Put a Pontiac body and price tag on a 1g CTS, even. Pontiac pushed an image that they couldn't back up with the products they had. Either way, everything that happened was GM's fault.

I didn't drive mine today because I'm a loser, but I did just clean the upstairs bathroom so that has to count for something.

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/D6G4Xh45SRQ

Fueled by Caffeine wrote: What had Pontiac made in recent years, that wasn't available in another brand, that justified them staying around? The gto?

The above was the question that was asked.

I answered it appropriately. You could not get a coupe version of the Sky, so the Solstice coupe and GTO and G8 was only available as a Pontiac an no other brand here in the US.

You berkeleyers are changing the rules after the fact. How many were produced does not pertain to the question asked.

Appleseed wrote: You're all wrong. Pontiac died in 1981 when they stopped puting Pontiac engines in Pontiacs.

You could get a 2.5 Iron duke in the 6000 up to 1991. Not that you'd want to, but you could.

I was really upset to see Pontiac go, I've owned many and currently have 2 Firebirds. Buick could have been limited to China only, Saturn was a lost cause at this point, and Hummer was a fad. They should have kept Olds over Buick in the US. The Aurora, Alero, and Intrigue were way nicer cars.

How many were produced absolutely is relevant - that justifies the brand remaining in existence. 6k production of a halo car isn't going to do it, and expensive Australian rebadges aren't going to do it either.