Hey All! I'm new to the on-line family here, long time subscriber - Love it! My son has a 1993 Saab 900 classic that has died. I have tried to work on it, but lack of funds and Saab knowledge have limited my progress. On April 4 my son is scheduled to leave for boot camp in the US Army. I would love to get his car up and running for these last weeks before he leaves. Can anyone with Saab knowledge help out?
Can you give us a little more info regarding what it did before it died? It's kinda hard to work out from your description what the potential causes could be.
I'd start with the usual - spark, fuel, compression - and work my way around the car from there. They're not massively sophisticated...
yes, we need more info.
I don't know where Auburn, Ga. is, but I'm sure there's a GRMer nearby.
Died. Cut off like someone pulled a switch and killed it bang! right now, or a slow painful bugga bugga bugga to the curb?
Welcome BTW.
Dan
WELCOME!!!! and yes, please give us more info. It may be a Saab but it is still just car. 93 makes it pre OBD2 I think.
Thanks for replying. OK - Here are the basic details. The car started getting hard to start last spring, requiring a lot of cranking - especially when cold (a shot or two of starter fluid usually worked). I thought it was the valve on the fuel pump gone bad allowing the fuel pressure to leak off. Before I could replace the fuel pmp, it started with mis-firing while cold and under load. I tinkered with it, cleaned and checked plugs, etc. would make minimal improvement in performance. Replaced alternator in July (FYI). In mid August it took the final turn. Mis-firing and back firing it took on a limp mode and would barely get above 30 mph. I spent a day cleaning and checking everything. It ran much better for about 6 miles, then died completely. At a suggestion I replaced the fuel pump, but car would still not start - It did have fuel pressure though. The one other factor is a persistant main seal oil leak that was a drip and is now a geiser - dumping 1/2 cup of oil on the driveway just in a few moments of cranking. MY conclusions are the ECU or the Hall/crank sensor based on reading I have done. But as son and I are both out of work cash is 00 and experimenting limited. Also, I'm not sure how to test these items.
Pinto7 wrote: Thanks for replying. OK - Here are the basic details. The car started getting hard to start last spring, requiring a lot of cranking - especially when cold (a shot or two of starter fluid usually worked).
This scenario suggests a bad coolant temp sensor. If the signal it's sending to the ECU is bad, then the ECU won't trim the injector pulses properly and you'll get either too little or too much fuel at cold-start conditions. The sensor has a blue plug and is located in between a couple intake runners where the intake bolts to the head.
Pinto7 wrote: I thought it was the valve on the fuel pump gone bad allowing the fuel pressure to leak off. Before I could replace the fuel pmp, it started with mis-firing while cold and under load. I tinkered with it, cleaned and checked plugs, etc. would make minimal improvement in performance.
This could still be a coolant sensor, or a dying crank sensor, maybe a dying MAF sensor (Saabers call it an air mass meter).
Pinto7 wrote: Replaced alternator in July (FYI). In mid August it took the final turn. Mis-firing and back firing it took on a limp mode and would barely get above 30 mph. I spent a day cleaning and checking everything. It ran much better for about 6 miles, then died completely. At a suggestion I replaced the fuel pump, but car would still not start - It did have fuel pressure though.
No start on these cars is usually a spark issue: if there is no spark, then the ECU will not run the fuel pump. If you have no spark, then it could be the crank sensor, but the air mass meter may have crapped out, too.
Pinto7 wrote: The one other factor is a persistant main seal oil leak that was a drip and is now a geiser - dumping 1/2 cup of oil on the driveway just in a few moments of cranking. MY conclusions are the ECU or the Hall/crank sensor based on reading I have done.
This is worrisome. There is a scenario that ties the no-start and the leak together: a bad crank pulley can wear a hole in the oil pump cover, causing oil to pour out from behind the crank pulley, and taking out the crank sensor. Has there been a god-awful screeching upon start-up for some time?
Post back to confirm that the oil is pouring out from behind the crank pulley, and that you have no spark. By the way, the ECUs on these cars rarely go bad.
What about different engine temps? Can you get it to struggle along long enough to get it warmed up (I'm wondering about the cold start system here)? If so, does it run better when up to temp?
I guess if you've got good fuel pressure, it's not something simple like the filter or something..and I don't recall many failed ECUs back when I was working at my buddy's indie SAAB repair shop, but that was a long time ago (actually before your son's 93 was even built, come to think of it). I don't know how they've aged.
Is the oil leak on the "front", or the "back" of the motor (remember that SAABs have the engine in the car "backwards", with the power output driving the clutch at the front of the car)?
If you haven't already done so, locate the Bentley manual for a 16V SAAB 900. It will be a tremendous help to you and the people who are helping you diagnose this problem. There is nothing better than the Bentley unless it's the official SAAB shop manual.
I'm going with the Hall sensor/leak or dying air mass meter. The ECU is virtually bulletproof.
the OP didn't mention if this is a turbo or N/A engine, turbos don't have the crank position sensor, just a hall trigger in the distributor, but I agree that the oil leak could be from a bad crank pulley on an N/A engine, other wise I would lean towaeds the MAF or the temp sender. A compression check would also be a wise idea at this point too since the 2.1L N/A engines have HG issiues.
Lastly altough GRM is my favorite web site & forum, the SAABnetwork and SAABcentral are better for SAAB newbies with alot of specific questions. Good Luck.
I vote bad air mass meter or oil leaking on the crank sensor ( depending on which engine)
Ah yes. It is a non-turbo. My son does not remember a screeching sound. I do however recall being under the car while it was running to determine the source of the oil leak and noting that the crank pulley seemed wobbley. I didn't have a light on it so Iwas not totally sure. I dismissed as not an issue. Maybe it is? How hard is the crank sensor and oil seal to change out? Can a good used one be found for near zero $$ if that is the problem? I have the Bently manuel.
Pinto7 wrote: Ah yes. It is a non-turbo. My son does not remember a screeching sound. I do however recall being under the car while it was running to determine the source of the oil leak and noting that the crank pulley seemed wobbley. I didn't have a light on it so Iwas not totally sure. I dismissed as not an issue. Maybe it is? How hard is the crank sensor and oil seal to change out? Can a good used one be found for near zero $$ if that is the problem? I have the Bently manuel.
A wobbly crank pulley/balancer means the rubber parts in the balancer are deteriorating. Removal is a PITA but doable. There are two issues:
Some folks break the pulley bolt by rigging up a breaker bar with a pipe against the shop floor or a subframe rail and using the starter motor. Others use a tool on the flywheel or an assistant to jam a screwdriver or other object against the flywheel teeth. The bolt is on there with some force so it has to be a big screwdriver and a strong assistant.
Because the 16V uses a double fan belt pulley, some folks actually cut down a socket to gain enough clearance to get it on the bolt head with the breaker bar attached. The trick is cutting down the socket just enough so it uses the steering rack or firewall as a brace to hold it on the bolt head when employing either of the two main removal methods described above.
The fine folk at saabnet.com have the skinny on this problem as it's endemic to all 8V or 16V classic 900 motors. Use the search function on the C900 BB. You'll find more than a thousand posts on the subject.
Confirm that the pulley is shot and post back. Look for wear on the inside edge of the pulley to see if you can determine contact was made with the oil pump cover. I'm not sure if you'll be able to see the wear on the pump cover but you ought to try by getting under the car and looking up. There is a small protrusion at the very bottom of the cover that the pulley will have contacted and worn down. Unfortunately, behind that protrusion is pressurized oil!
It may also be that the crank seal and/or the pump cover seal are simply leaking very badly. But the fact that you mention a 1/2 cup of oil after a few cranks makes me think the cover is done.
As for fixing: I won't lie: the tight space down there makes the work challenging. It's not impossible, though. Here are detailed instructions from a Saab tech:
http://townsendimports.com/Web/engine_folder/front_crank_seal900.htm
If you need another oil pump cover, it's got to come from any 90-93 (+ 94 convertible) 900 Turbo or non-turbo, or '89 NON-turbo. (You may be able to use one from an '89 Turbo -- check to see if it's machined to accept the crank sensor first.) Earlier years won't work because they are not machined to accept the crank sensor. Your best bet for finding one is from a Saab indy shop if there is one near you. You might also post on Saabcentral.com and ask someone to help you out. On Saabnet your request will be deleted because the guy who runs it makes everyone pay for Wanted/For Sale ads. (Despite this, the information on Saabnet's c900 forum is better than on Saabcentral, IMHO.)
Of course, you'll need a new crank seal, and don't skip the pump cover seal.
As for the pulley, if you must go with a used one (not sure I'd do this, but I understand your financial predicament), then it MUST come from an '89-93 (+94 cvt) NON-Turbo. (Turbo pulleys won't work because they are not machined for the crank sensor shutter wheel.) If you buy new, the cheapest will be from aftermarket supplier ScanTech. See www.eEuroparts.com.
As for the crank sensor, assuming, of course, it's bad. (If you have no spark, then the only other possible culprit would be the ignition control module, which I'm not inclined to think is bad based on your symptoms.) There are a few ways to go about this one. The most expensive is to buy one from www.eEuroparts.com. This is the cheapest place to get one, but still spendy. I would not put a used one on personally.
Another way: You can solder in your own replacement sensor by buying one of these: http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/bb/900/index.html?bID=384785 It'll cost you a lot less. If you have to do the crank pulley/oil pump cover, then this is the route I would go.
A third option is to ditch the crank sensor completely and fit a used distributor from any 85-93 (+94 convertible) 16V Turbo OR any 16V 86-87 NON-turbo. These cars' distributors all have Hall sensors inside them (your 93 distributor is empty). The signal is the same as from the crank sensor. What you do is re-wire the car with the wiring/plug from a donor car and install the dist. w/Hall-equipped sensor. You need to manually set timing to 14*BTDC.
The connector plugs on the distributors are fragile. The '89-93 (+ 94 cvt) distributors have slightly different plugs from the earlier cars that are a bit more robust but still not durable. Also, the Turbos have a vacuum capsule for advance/retard. Do NOT attach a vacuum hose to this on your car. You want to leave the capsule screwed to the distributor but NOT use it. Your car's electronic ignition system (EZK) will take care of timing.
After writing all of this, remember that the car may also need an air mass meter, unfortunately. The only way to test is with a known-good unit. For your 93, you can use air mass meters from 91-93 (+94 cvt) NON-Turbos. Do not attempt to use a meter from another year range (you can fry the ECU).
EDIT: It may need a coolant temp sensor, too. These are $15-$20 new, or get one from a boneyard. Here's a list of Saabs/Volvos that use the same sensor: http://www.eeuroparts.com/Main/PartDetail.aspx?id=9357021
sounds like an air mass meter, or ign amp, or hall effect, hall effect on NA cars are behind the crank pull, turbo cars are in the dizzy.
a failed ign amp will yeild symptoms on part with what you saying, and is often overlooked.
it will still spark, but skip, alot, causing misfires.untill the unit has completely failed.
check it by either A pluging in anuther one (located inside the fender near the APC box) or checking spark at the coil wire, it will be more eractic than normal.
mike
non turbo - hard to start - runs crappy when it does start...
check for a bad head gasket. 2.1 is notorious for head gasket failure
I know my own 91 2.1.. I had problems with the cat falling apart and clogging the exhaust. Gave me all sorts of issues that seemed unrelated
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