Road Racing and the Decline of the Manual Transmission

There have been a lot of discussions about the dwindling number of new cars available with manual transmissions. Hopefully the stick will always be available in Mustangs, Miatas, etc. but what about the others. I'm thinking specifically about classes like SCCA touring and showroom stock along with pro series like Grand Am ST and some of the World Challenge classes. Looking forward, will the manual transmission disappear from all but a small number of cars? What does the future hold for 'stockish' car classes?

Just a random thought on a Friday evening.

I'm guessing that it will die in all but a few niche cars. Manuals used to be cheaper, faster, more efficient. Not anymore.

With the advent of the flappy gear levers, locking torque converters, and 9 speed transmissions on tiny engines that get 40+ mpg, the manual is a thing of the past.

A lot newer drivers don't want to drive, much less shift.

Manuals are slower. So nobody's going to want them for racing anyhow!

no, it just means everyone will be "vintage racing" a couple decades from now in really really old Miatas and e30s and whatnot.

well, at least me.

Toyman01 wrote: A lot newer drivers don't want to drive, much less shift.

This makes me sad. Off to make sure me young ones don't fall into that trap.

Toyman01 wrote: A lot newer drivers don't want to drive, much less shift.

... and when self-driving cars are the norm in the next decade or two, they won't have to at all. And where will that leave the racers? You think companies will still make traditional human-operated cars at that point or only the kit car companies?

Manuals though slower, offer less expensive service cost and greater longevity. I don't want a weekend to end early and to miss another weekend due to the cost associated with a dsg/dual clutch flappy box replacement

I can suppose I will quit buying manual transmission cars when I finally can't drive myself anymore and buy a self driving car. I enjoy the control they give me. Raised on American automatic transmissions I never learned to drive a manual till I was 25. At 44 I can't see me buying a car without a manual for the foreseeable future.

In reply to mapper: There may need to be two categories in each class, one for manual transmissions, and the other auto/dual clutch cars if there is enough racers to warrant something like that.

captdownshift wrote: Manuals though slower, offer less expensive service cost and greater longevity. I don't want a weekend to end early and to miss another weekend due to the cost associated with a dsg/dual clutch flappy box replacement

Is this based on hard data or personal experience? Because stuff breaks on manual transmissions, too.

The only way to keep the manual transmission around is for us enthusiasts to go out and buy new cars with manual transmissions. Other than that we will all be driving fancy automatics sooner than later. In twenty years we will be pushing for cars that we can still control.

I've done my part, have you?

Andy Neuman wrote: The only way to keep the manual transmission around is for us enthusiasts to go out and buy new cars with manual transmissions. Other than that we will all be driving fancy automatics sooner than later. In twenty years we will be pushing for cars that we can still control. I've done my part, have you?

This. why would a company make something that doesn't sell? My last 2 car purchases were new cars with sticks, one sports car, one econo-box. It was hard to find the econobox (new focus SE, not the sporty version) with a stick, but worth it 110%. Still too little too late, though. I guess we could all stock up on cars from the 80's and 90's and just keep driving those forever? I mean, i already have a couple stocked up already, how about everybody else?

Keith Tanner wrote: Manuals are slower. So nobody's going to want them for racing anyhow!

Ayup, the only place manual transmissions are used in high level motorsports is where automatic shifting is banned.

This didn't just start. I bought a Focus ZX3 new in 2001. I went to all the big dealers around me with 20-30 of them in stock, and none of them had a stick version. I ended up driving from near Jackson MS, almost to Memphis to find one. With the exception of pickup trucks, I've only purchased one automatic for myself, back when I didn't know any better...,

Internal combustion engines seem to be on the downward slope of their reign. I do believe every manufacturer sells a hybrid of some sort. Most offer an all-electric vehicle as well. Before we know it everything will be electric.

I imagine it would be REALLY hard to find a manual transmission at that point...well besides the one on my bicycle.

The_Jed wrote: Internal combustion engines seem to be on the downward slope of their reign. I do believe every manufacturer sells a hybrid of some sort. Most offer an all-electric vehicle as well. Before we know it everything will be electric. I imagine it would be REALLY hard to find a manual transmission at that point...well besides the one on my bicycle.

There have been two hybrids with a manual, the 1st gen Insight and the CR-Z. I bought a CR-Z manual, but it was Honda CPO, not new. I wonder how much CPO sales matter. Honda just announced the second refresh of the CR-Z, even though they're something like 0.5% of overall sales. I'm glad they did a refresh, but I don't understand it.

Thing is, these are Honda IMA drivetrains. Gas and electric are rigidly bolted to the same crankshaft, and turn together. This gives you a very simple powertrain. It'd be hard to manage manually clutching two different and independent power outputs, each with very different power bands.

In electric cars, speaking only about modern offerings, Detroit Electric was supposed to have a manual, as was the Tesla Roadster. Tesla kept breaking them due to torque.

Most electric cars have a single speed gearbox that is directly connected to the output shaft of the motor. The motor is unpowered for neutral, and turns backward for reverse. So, I guess it's not an automatic either.

The_Jed wrote: Internal combustion engines seem to be on the downward slope of their reign. I do believe every manufacturer sells a hybrid of some sort. Most offer an all-electric vehicle as well. Before we know it everything will be electric. I imagine it would be REALLY hard to find a manual transmission at that point...well besides the one on my bicycle.

There are automatics for bikes as well. I'm guessing they are on the way out as well.

In reply to Toyman01:

And Shimano's Di electronic shifting system is pretty much some load sensors and software code away from being capable of automatic shifting. It already self-trims the front derailleur depending on what cassette cog is engaged. IIRC, some prototypes have already been made, but Shimano is usually hesitant to release anything until it is 100% ready.

If I were building an all-out race car, I would choose the transmission that was fastest. It kinda depends on your goal and the chosen class. Do you want to just drive around the track and have fun or do you want to win? When the goal is the latter, more emotional choices like the type of transmission or even the brand of car become less relevant. The car is simply a tool.

I know a few guys who are very serious about autocross. They buy a car based on how competitive it is and very little else and then dump it when something faster comes along. Is this expensive? Absolutely. But nobody said competing at the top level was cheap and they are not content to "just run" anymore.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

Observations of 2 seasons comparing number of pdk versus manual replacements and rebuilds in GTB class caymans. The pdk service life is much shorter, that being said the gear ratios are superior and it's nearly 3-4 seconds a lap faster on most tracks, which is an eternity, even in a 45 minute sprint race. The 100lb penalty for PDK is laughable and well worth it if you're up for the operating cost.

Just a reminder that traditional (torque converter) hydraulic powered automatics are power sappers compared to a manual; a typical traditional automatic uses up an AVERAGE of 25% of the engines' BHP, and the higher the revs climb more the power is consumed by the hydraulic operating system, and the car will always be slower and less efficeint. A typical manual only consumes between 12% and 15% of the BHP. Now, when you start talking about "automated clutch" automatics, which is what all the new dual clutch autos actually are, those are just as efficient as a manual plus having the performance benefit of being able shift faster and harder than any human. Throw in 7 or 8 forward gears and some performance geared (bad pun, I know) ECM tuning to keep the engine in the powerband at all times, and a race car with a dual clutch auto will ALWAYS be faster than with a manual.

Keith Tanner wrote: Manuals are slower. So nobody's going to want them for racing anyhow!

It really beats me when people dog on a muscle car because it's an auto. If I had my choice it would be a 70 Cuda 340 auto.

Keith Tanner wrote:

captdownshift wrote: Manuals though slower, offer less expensive service cost and greater longevity. I don't want a weekend to end early and to miss another weekend due to the cost associated with a dsg/dual clutch flappy box replacement

Is this based on hard data or personal experience? Because stuff breaks on manual transmissions, too.

from what I've learned, it's based on hard data ...

the cost of maintaining a dual clutch GTI is way more than that of a 5 speed (and needed way more often) ... and I'm betting that other auto's are just as expensive to maintain, and need maintenance way more often

I've been driving manuals since the middle 60's ... I've never had to replace a clutch, much less rebuild a transmission (just change out the diff/trans fluid every few yrs) ...

not many people can say that, or make the equivalent statement about a regular type automatic

and when the inevitable automatic rebuild happens, how many shops do most of know of that we think of as trustworthy ... the rep. of those shops is high level robbery

edit: I missed part of the title ... my experiences are with street driven, and really low level RR/autoX ...

but for upper level RR'ing the dual clutch autos will take over, if they haven't already

djsilver wrote: I ended up driving from near Jackson MS

Ay yo! Are you by chance still in Mississippi? Only a couple of us here. Sorry to derail Yalls manual trans debate I guess I should add to, it's been a long time coming, drivers forget how to use whatever option has been fased out (radios with buttons? Manual trans? Roll up windows haha) as stated its up to us (y'all I'm too broke) to buy new cars with manuals so I'll have used cars with manuals to buy

Manual transmissions are the ultimate anti theft device.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/would-be-carjackers-foiled-in-seattle-couldnt-drive-stick/

Great discussion. The last time I looked at the SCCA GCR, they still had the rule that no automatic transmissions were allowed in club racing. I was thinking about the declining number of manuals being built and the SCCA rule popped into my head.

It's funny, I was thinking about the anti-theft aspect of manuals that FBC mentioned the other day. That and about my current fleet. The 99 Miata is a manual. The 2012 Focus is a dual clutch (and I'm over it). My 2014 Ram has the ZF eight speed auto and it's an amazing transmission.