Rules technicality

So as the van project (that is sitting patiently idle waiting on me to finish it) evolves; it has gone from a fun street sleeper/drag racer, to unexpected track car. One lap and the UTCC have pushed me to want to put it on track. This has led me to bring it up to NASA competition rules. One of the problem areas is the fuel cell. The stock fuel tank had to go to make room for the AWD rear end. Right now the plan is to run a 12 gal plastic cell from Summit.

This is the rules concerning fuel cells from the NASA rule book:

All fuel cells must be FIA FT3 (or higher) certified. A fuel cell is not required, except as specified by class rules.. All vehicles having a fuel cell must comply with the rules in this section, even if a fuel cell is not required by the class rules.

This means my cheap drag race cell won't cut it. I would like to avoid dropping more than twice the original purchase price of the van on an ATL or the like FIA approved cell with a bladder.

My question is this. If I use a stock fuel tank, does it have to be in the same location as stock? I have room between the rear diff and rear bumper to put either a stock minivan tank, or maybe a tank from another 80s era dodge.

I don't know about the Challenge, but Lemons rules say stock unaltered fuel tank or FIA cell. I'm guessing most rules read similar.

In reply to moparman76_69:

That rule pisses me off too. There are a million stock/late model and sprint cars hitting walls at 140+ without fireballs using good, affordable fuel cells that NASA and BMWCCA disallow for the absolute most expensive option on the planet.

Yes. The stock fuel tank has to remain in the stock location. I have seen people cut the driver side half saddle off an E30 tank to save weight for sprint racing though... you end up with a 9g tank. Either way - I would not feel safe placing the fuel tank outside the cage boundary (or axle boundaries) as you suggest unless it was designed like a fuel cell. Even without W2W, you could easily back the thing into a wall and find yourself in a solvent shower.

So I would have to have a stock tank for the vehicle or a stock tank? The awd vans had the tank between the driver's side frame rail and the driveshaft. I can't use the stock AWD tank because they are too long for my SWB van, and I have yet to see a SWB AWD 91-95 van. I have a dodge dakota tank though and it might be able to fit in that area.

And yeah I didn't like the idea of putting a stock tank behind the axle but I don't have many options outside of spending metric assloads of cash.

Unfortunatly I think your SOL and need a re-cockulouse FIA fule cell. Check out e-bay, they come up cheap with expired bladders quite a lot, get one, build around it and replace the bladder at a later date, spreads out your purchase $$"s

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Unfortunatly I think your SOL and need a re-cockulouse FIA fule cell. Check out e-bay, they come up cheap with expired bladders quite a lot, get one, build around it and replace the bladder at a later date, spreads out your purchase $$"s

Been there... bladder == $500 and expires every 5yrs. Ouchies.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Been there... bladder == $500 and expires every 5yrs. Ouchies.

This really pisses me off. This whole belts, bladders, seats etc. expiring every 3-5 years is just a money making scam. Even in the UK they let you use non FIA cells for many series. By the time you add up all the stuff with expiration dates I just don’t ever see myself racing again.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: In reply to moparman76_69: That rule pisses me off too. There are a million stock/late model and sprint cars hitting walls at 140+

from about 3 feet away, at an extremely shallow angle...

Knurled wrote: from about 3 feet away, at an extremely shallow angle...

Well, they do come across an infield and up the banking at incredible speed or tumble end over end down the straights too. The point I'm making is that the cells they use are half the cost of FIA GT3 certified (and sometimes the same EXACT cell without the sticker) and safe. For amateur club racing where cost matters it would be nice if someone making rules would put a second option up for cars under a certain power/weight or just one that makes a reasonable stab at "safe enough" like they do with roll cage tubing size by class/weight.

Can you get away with not using an FIA cell if you have a completely closed off sheet metal firewall between the driver and the fuel tank? It might be worth asking the head of tech for whatever series you might be running, even if it doesn't say it's OK in the rulebook.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Been there... bladder == $500 and expires every 5yrs. Ouchies.

This really pisses me off. This whole belts, bladders, seats etc. expiring every 3-5 years is just a money making scam. Even in the UK they let you use non FIA cells for many series. By the time you add up all the stuff with expiration dates I just don’t ever see myself racing again.

this is the kind of stuff that keeps a lot of people away from racing. the sanctioning bodies are bound by whatever their insurance companies say, and insurance companies aren't generally staffed with car guys that have common sense... so you wind up with weird rules like they have in the NHRA where it's perfectly fine to use your stock crusty and sun faded 40 year old seat belts, but as soon as you go aftermarket to try to be safer they need to be SFI certified and replaced every 3 years.. and it's perfectly fine to use the stock minimalistic battery mounts and cables routed next to hot headers and moving fan blades and what not if you keep the battery in the stock location, but as soon as you mount it in the trunk out of the car's crumple zones with 10 pounds of angle iron and grade 8 bolts with the cables routed far away from anything that moves or throws off any heat you need to have a cutoff switch in order for it to be "safe".

Ok moparman, im not trying to get your hopes up here, because this is like 1 in a million, but i HAVE seen a SWB awd van. I almost bought it for $200. I am a foolish foolish fool for not doing so. This was almost 10 years ago.

I was surprised how inexpensive new fuel tanks are (at least for my F250)... Have you checked to see whether anybody lists the application for a SWB awd van?

Low production means perhaps they didn't bother, but if they did it would spare your scouring the junkyards (and whatever gunk is in what you do find...)

1.) NASA Competition rules also stipulate that, among the other mounting restrictions, the fuel cell must be mounted within 12 inches of the original fuel tank location. So I highly doubt you could move a standard fuel tank any further than that either. I would think they also would not allow (or at least frown upon) standard fuel tanks from other vehicles that do not bolt in to factory mounts, but that's just a guess.

2.) There is no need to build a HPDE/TT vehicle to W2W Competition rules unless you plan to get a log book and W2W race it in a specific class. Otherwise just build it to the HPDE/TT rules that it would actually be running in, which have few specific comments regarding fuel cells and allow 'good condition' expired harnesses. Not that you can't over-build things like a roll cage to Competition specs, but just remember that that you aren't required to do a lot of thing if you choose not to. Best bet would be to discuss this directly with your local NASA technical inspectors to see how fuel cells are specifically dealt with in HPDE/TT or if they maybe do require any fuel cells used to conform to Competition specifications even though it's never mentioned in the rules. I don't see why they would have a problem with SFI cells, although they may still not like the really cheap rotary molded ones. This entire issue may ultimately fall under the "Floor pan modifications to include items such as sub-frame connectors, roll cage bracing, and fuel cell placement may be approved on a case-by-case basis by the National TT Director" from the TT rules.

Is there anything saying a stock tank must be unmodified?

How about 1/2 a stock tank in the original location?

Beyond the drivetrain, the fuel cell is the single largest expense on the TR4 (FIA GT3). The cheapest I could come up with was the kit with the bladder and build your own container. With steel, would be just under $500 for a 12-gal set up.

The AWD rear diff literally bolts to the same place as the FWD gas tank in a caravan so there's not really a way to modify a FWD tank to stay in the factory location.

I think the idea of checking for an aftermarket SWB AWD tank is a good idea. You could mount it like factory and just not tell anyone. That's what i would do.

The other option that i would consider, but i dont know if you would, is just moving the fuel tank INSIDE, right on top of the factory location, and just strap it to the floor. That's within 12" of the factory location... You probably would not be able to use the factory filler location because it would be on the same level as the tank. This is all assuming this is a no interior van since you're talking about making it a track car.

No go on a replacement awd tank. I know swb ones exist but are rarer than rare. The tanks are polymer not metal on awd vans. If I put it inside the passenger compartment I would have to build a firewall around it.

novaderrik wrote: the sanctioning bodies are bound by whatever their insurance companies say, and insurance companies aren't generally staffed with car guys that have common sense...

getting on a tangent, but that's not actually true. I was involved with a club that paid for motorsports insurance, and I once asked them what they require- they said "what ever you do". so it came down to someone having the bright idea that X was safer, and now that is required since it was written down and decided upon.

Once that happens, it's then part of the insurance.

More than once, I fought "safety" proposals that only would reduce the number of participants. It's was not as if we had a rash of problems, or even a single example of a problem that could have been addressed. Just someone "thought" it was common sense to make a safety related change.

Anyway, more reasons why I should just sell the race car before going on the track with it.

Update on where I'm at with this. There is no SWB-LWB AWD tank difference as I first though. The pickup is the same between the standard caravan tank and the AWD tank, but the filler neck is different. So the only parts I need that are unique are the tank and the filler neck. There is an additional crossmember that spot welds on the unibody that supports the straps, since the 2nd gen and 1st gen vans are the same underneath, I should be able to drill out the spot welds and put in the crossmember.

TL;DR I can make a 2nd gen AWD tank bolt in to my 1st gen all factory like.

1. Does it LOOK factory? (no homebrew looking components anywhere)

2. Is your vehicle obscure enough that you're not likely to have someone poke around and shout "A-HA!"?

3. Can you delete your post?

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

Knurled wrote: 1. Does it LOOK factory? (no homebrew looking components anywhere) 2. Is your vehicle obscure enough that you're not likely to have someone poke around and shout "A-HA!"? 3. Can you delete your post?

+1