Rust actually kills cars dead?

P3PPY said:

We had rust in KC, as in 80s GM cars just disappeared driving down the road. But this is something else here in Mid Michigan! Cars I’ve never before seen with rust on them — Challengers, Yarises, even alloy wheels crumble away. I bring this up because a lady from church said a mechanicy friend of hers told her her 98ish Regal had a bad tear control arm. I took a gander on both sides

Nope  control arm looks fine!

at this point are cars like this simply scrap?? Or does one rescue them with some plate metal and bolts? She’s not well off, let’s just start there, so I feel very bad for her if this is the end. 

Yea, scrap.  There's nothing to bolt TO.

chandler said:

ShawnG said:

98 Regal?

Time for scrap, it's worth less than the fuel in the tank.

You can replace that car with something far less rusty for what a repair of any kind that will pass an inspection would cost.

Inspection? Salt states should have them, but don’t.

We don't need inspections, it's self-policing.

Plus, if we did have inspections that sent cars to the scrapper 5-6 years in advance, used car prices would get even higher than they are now.  If you thought $2k for a rusted out car was bad, wait until the majority of cheap used cars are not eligible to be registered.  Low income people would have no way of getting around except for crappy bus service that doesn't go to where they live or where they work and never at good times.

Mobility is survival...

I am against inspections on principle; however, in this case that rust would have been caught 10 years ago and fixed before it was at this point.

edit: and may make used car prices DROP by having more of them repaired rather than scrapped.

There isn't really any fixing or preventing.  The fatal rust generally starts inside spot weld seams and stuff - areas that paint or other rust protection can't really access, and also act as natural grit traps.  That grit retains moisture and grinds away what protection there is.

It is funny how Mazda and Volvo made the same chassis (Mazda3, Volvo C30/S40/V50) and the Mazda is one of the most rust prone cars and the Volvo is one of the best protected.  Clearly it isn't JUST mechanical design, but also manufacturing process.

By the time an inspection catches a spot of rust, you can assume there are at least 10 more developing that aren't visible yet. At that point you have to choose between dumping hundreds or thousands in repairs into a used car that is actively disintegrating, or just running it a few more years and sending it in for scrap.

I spent good money to get the rocker on my Miata repaired as soon as I caught the rust. Now the other side is bubbling, I don't have more money, and I know that isn't the only part that's rusting away. I wash it frequently and only drove it 5 or 6 times during the winter. I'll just let it rust and then part it out most likely.

How much rust is worth fixing depends on the car.  Some chassis rust badly in specific spots but not much elsewhere.  So you can fix the bad spots and still have plenty of life left in the chassis.  With others, by the time one spot has noticeable rust, there are 10 others almost as bad.  

Knurled. said:

We don't need inspections, it's self-policing.

Plus, if we did have inspections that sent cars to the scrapper 5-6 years in advance, used car prices would get even higher than they are now.  If you thought $2k for a rusted out car was bad, wait until the majority of cheap used cars are not eligible to be registered.  Low income people would have no way of getting around except for crappy bus service that doesn't go to where they live or where they work and never at good times.

Mobility is survival...

The owner of the car in the original post didn't self-police, nor did the first person she asked for advice help her to do so. Someone referred to them as a mechanic friend, and I wish they'd said "mechanic" friend. Or maybe mechanic "friend."

Systems adapt. If appliance cars were observed to reach end of life 5-6 years sooner (which is an admission of reality, not bureaucracy), that might drag down what people were willing to pay for new ones, used ones then depreciating from a lower starting point. In heavy rust areas, it seems cars barely qualify as "durable goods." It might even cause there to be more emphasis on the type of simpler, cheaper cars that are the basis of so much good stuff in the automotive world.

A reasonable person could argue that not having control arms fall off is survival, for driver, passenger, and others on the road.

In reply to Ransom :

It's a conversation I have to have all the time.  By "self policing", I mean the cars are taken off the road when they can no longer be lifted to work on.  Some people don't care about that, though, or maybe can't afford to care.

It's probably the only downside of living in an area with one of the lowest cost of living. 

In reply to Knurled. :

Depending on where a given chassis is prone to rust, however, the car could be structurally unsafe (especially in a crash) or start losing suspension mounts before the lift points will crush when you try to lift it.  

Update on this. I told our pastor I’d be willing to give her my ‘04 Accord. It’s a Kansas car so it’s doing well with the rust thing. My pastor hasn’t gotten around to telling the lady yet, dunno why, and I heard tonight that the Regal owner has in the meantime talked to a friend who is going to try to rig up some metal plates to attach the control arm to?? (How do you type “aye yi yi”?) Except this friend is wanting someone ELSE to come up with the metal plates for them to use, which tells me they don’t have enough contacts or experience in the world of metals to get them on their own. SMH 

I need to see what the holdup is on that Accord before lots of people get hurt

*****

a bit of preachy rationale here for anyone already on “the path”: the Bible story of the miraculous feeding of 5,000 and the boy with the loaves of bread and the fish stood out to me. He saw a bunch of people in need. He didn’t just share with them, but with the act of giving all he had, he was saying “I will take your place. I will be in need instead of you.” I’m not totally comparing our act with that; we do still have two more cars, but that’s where we came from with it. 

Selflessness feels good now and again. You're doing good stuff.

She may not realize it, but the work needed to fix that rusty car is probably worth almost as much as your Accord. Sounds like a good choice. It's better for her, and it's better for you than trying to repair that mess.

You're a good guy for helping out and donating your Accord.  Well done.

A comment on inspections.  I think it's wrong to think that inspections driving old unsafe cars off the road will increase the price of old cars.  The evidence is to the contrary.  Most other first world countries have some form of inspection, although the UK is the only one I have experience off.  Over there once a car is three years old it's subjected to an 'MOT Test' (Ministry of Transport)  It's super strict.  It checks function of brakes and balance, shocks, brake and fuel lines, wipers, wheel bearings, lights, emissions (age-appropriate and not as OTT as CA or other places) and most importantly body structure.  Any structural or other through body rust has to be repaired.  Any rust within 6" of a suspension mount or in structural places has to be either repaired with panels to factory spec or any patches must be seam welded.  It's tough, really tough and keeps old 'dangerous' cars off the road.  According to conventional wisdom that should drive the price of old cars through the roof.  It's the opposite.  Cars depreciate faster and further over here.  There is a never ending supply of cheap 10-20 year old cars for sale, more at better prices than here.  

When I first got here (Michigan 25 years ago) I was horrified to see the state of cars on the road.  Totally rotted out rocker panels, flapping fenders, 30 degrees of negative camber on a bald mini spare belching black smoke bouncing down the road on shocks that blew out 10 years ago.  I was convinced the place was a death trap and people would be dying on old cars all over the place.  Well 25 years later I see that isn't really the case. Yes, you occasionally see cars in the middle of an intersection with the wheel laying horizontal as a ball joint that was past its use by date 20K miles ago has finally separated, but I don't see half the accidents I expected.  Now having been here a long time I still believe there should be some kind of annual or semi annual safety inspection,  but I don't think it needs to be as severe as the UK.  And no, it won't drive the price of old cars out of the realm of lower income families.  As with most things, car ownership is much much cheaper over here (gas, insurance, spare parts etc.) and incomes are higher.

^Agreed.  The more strict the inspection, the more effort required to keep an older vehicle in compliance.  This makes older vehicles less appealing to most people and therefore cheaper.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

Giving deep thought to this, good inspection makes earlier repairs, thus saving many more cars, thus driving supply up / price down. Fix the rust early folks!

Bingo, I walked away from this discussion since Knurled was very adamant that I was wrong and I respect his opinion; however, supply and demand has been proven to work. If we had a system to keep more cars useable it would drive used car prices down; and by doing that sooner in the cycle it would cause more cheap cars to be available. 

I dont want inspections for my own selfish reasons though, modifications, things I deem safe but may not be deemed safe by others are all slippery slope items.

Ive only lived in an inspection state for a few years.  Cars seem to skew newer in the Northeast than they do back in Michigan.

Outside of Jeeps, it seems the main way people fix rust is to go into whatever dealer has an inflatable animal or wavy arm guy out front and say "I can afford $xxx per month, what sorta CUV can I get?" 

Thinkkker said:

One thing I noted. you can buy a complete fiberglass Mustang Fastback body for around $5k.  This is almost cheaper than getting a decent car.  Just buy a rusted out heap, and build to suit.   Big plus that the body weighs in a 150# apparently...

Wait, tell me more about this pls

Also, more pertinent to the conversation, up in central New York it was common knowledge that you did not touch the fuel lines or brake lines. If you had to, you had to have enough to rebuild the entire line from scratch because you were hardly successful chasing the new leak.

I had a car where the entire fuel line was replaced with rubber because of that.

I replaced the rear axle on a truck but left the brake drums dangling in space by hangars I made over the body so I didn't have to touch the lines.
 

My cousin didn't plan well doing the same job, and drove for a while with the rear brakes capped off.

Now I live in SC. What rust?

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

Please correct me if I’m wrong on this, but didn’t the UK also have a culture of company cars for white collar workers?  I’d assume this would lead to a fairly good sized supply of used cars, which would help depress prices.

Edit:  also, better public transportation, coupled with the increased cost of keeping a car would depress prices further.

Tom_Spangler said:

Spotted this truck in Michigan a few years back:

Yes, rust is what kills cars here. I have stories for days.....

 

I’d heard the horror stories of Michigan cars, but didn’t know how bad it was till:

1: I received a free Aspire parts-car from a member here who’d recently moved down from Michigan. Waa able to use the front knuckle/hub assemblies. The rears disintegrated when trying to remove them.

2: Visited Grand Rapids a few years ago and cars that were less than 10 years old were rolling down the road with all four quarters rusted away.

Crazy.

eastsideTim said:

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

Please correct me if I’m wrong on this, but didn’t the UK also have a culture of company cars for white collar workers?  I’d assume this would lead to a fairly good sized supply of used cars, which would help depress prices.

Edit:  also, better public transportation, coupled with the increased cost of keeping a car would depress prices further.

Yes, that was very much the case in the 70's to early 80's.  It was a way to give employees something that wasn't taxable.  The government caught on and started taxing company cars heavily so they fell out of favor.  Also yes on the great public transport, but that's been the case for the best part of a century and there are still lot's of cars on the roads.  Maybe not as many per capita as over here, but again, these things have been constants for the best part of a century.  Hell, as a result of the post WWII economy VAT (sale Tax in effect) was 50% of the price of a new car through the 1960's.  Now it's 'only' 20% 

Look at how gone this Square that's about to be run over by Bigfoot is... in 1983:  (0:50)

https://youtu.be/hdlpAPRWDnE?t=50

Ever hear about the ‘07-‘08 Hyundai minivans?

The control arms disintegrate and collapse while the rest of the van looks immaculate.

That’s BS. You read the recall comments and see how many suspensions collapsed while being driven. And this is on vans that were only a few years old at the time.

I grew up (in stature anyway) in WV.   That state had and continues to have some of the more strict annual inspection criteria I’ve seen.  Most people incorrectly believe that WV is lax on vehicle inspections.  It couldn’t be farther from true.  There, the rules were simple when it came to rust on the body.  ANY holes had to be patched.  You could patch them with paper-mâché if you were so inclined.  Then it would pass.  And I always thought that was preposterous.  Until....until that is, the star of an MTV reality show went “muddin” with some friends in an old Bronco II and got stuck in a hole.  Since it was cold out they elected to stay inside the Bronco until help arrived.  They all got sleepy and, well, you know the rest...

Patching holes can be important.  And to make it an easy decision to referee, NONE are allowed.  

The older I get, the more sense annual inspections make.  Maybe not to the same level as the infamous MOT, but my goodness, some of the rust I’ve seen recently on critical parts is scary.