S2000: talk me out of it?

Ok, so I'm getting a little tired of my Miata lately, I barely drive it on the street anymore with how loud, stiff, uncomfortable, and slow it is. It's great to autocross, but it's a '93, and I have read forum chatter that '93s in STS aren't allowed to run the VLSD without PS and AC. I had no idea about this when I bought the car, and the brochure contradicts this info, but there is a chart on Miata.net that says this is true. FWIW, I am very demotivated to continue to build up this car for STS if it's ultimately not legal for the class. I could swap all my gear over to a '90-92, but I'm far less than excited about the effort and expense of buying and preparing another car, only to get myself right back where I already am in performance. I figure if I am going to that much trouble, I want to end up with something I can be more excited about.

I have a good chunk of cash saved right now, and more on the way thanks to the homebuyers tax credit. I could use some of this to buy another Miata, or I could put around 50% down on an early S2000, with the intent of selling the Miata in the near future to pay off the rest. I think the S2k is a pretty good value right now, there seem to be many nice cars in the 10k-13k range, and I don't see nice ones ever dropping much below that level. It would be a reasonable part-time driver in the summer, and I would autocross it in BS to keep myself from wandering too far down the mod rabbit-hole this time. I have driven a couple (on the street), and really liked them (I wish there were a way to arrange autocross test drives :)). I'm hoping this could extend the life of my 328i daily driver while also being a convenient place to store $12k or so over the next several years until I can afford an Elise or something similar. If I had bought one 2 years ago with the balance of my retirement accounts, I'd be way ahead of where I am now :).

So, does anyone have any words of wisdom (or warning) on these cars, or any hints on where to look for an unmolested example? Are there any options to seek or avoid for autocross performance? I get the impression that they are pretty even in terms of potential between the F20 and F22 cars, and haven't heard anything about any must have options.

I made that move in '02 and haven't regretted it at all. It's as if Honda took a Miata and said what are the weaknesses and and then fixed them in the S2000. I'm not talking huge things, I'm talking things like elbow room, a decent interior light, a touch more power, a better convertible top, etc. etc.

I love the VTEC. The car is a true Jeckyll and Hyde car. You have it's Miata personality off VTEC with great gas mileage, more power than the Miata, that's easy to drive with your mind occupied elsewhere like on your female passenger and then there's the fire breathing side of post VTEC.

The 2 sides are completely different. Once on VTEC the transmission is geared so that you don't ever have to come off. It roars and goes. It is surprisingly fast and well balanced. On an autocross course a stock Miata just feels better in a slalom but everywhere else the S feels in it's element. Yes, a modified Miata will beat a stock S, but a modified S will beat a modified Miata.

You'd better be satisfied with the power levels cause Honda pretty well maxed it out and there is very little to be had from the aftermarket. With the Miata there are numerous turbo kits that will push the power past what the S has. Of course then they won't be nearly as reliable as the S.

I made 2 trips to Austin from Dallas with my Miata following the S on the same roads at the same speeds and every time the S drank almost exactly 1 gallon LESS gas than did the 1999 Miata.

Tires are expensive for the S since they use odd sizes. The stock sizes are larger than the size printed on the sidewall so you have to be careful when you buy new tires and shop by real width and diameter not rated size or else you can get tons of oversteer since the rears are much wider than the size would indicate. Many people don't know this and buy the wrong tires and then complain because it oversteers. Also many S owners have made the transition from Civics and have never driven a RWD car so they don't know how to handle a RWD car under power.

I've had Miatae and RX7s as well as muscle cars so I understand that the handling characteristics are just a factor of power and a RWD. Interestingly my 93 RX7 and the S felt almost exactly alike except there's more power in the VTEC than in the 2nd turbo of the 7.

Any issues the early models had probably have all been fixed by now so there's really nothing to warn you about, maintenance or reliabilty wise.

Josh wrote: Are there any options to seek or avoid for autocross performance? I get the impression that they are pretty even in terms of potential between the F20 and F22 cars, and haven't heard anything about any must have options.

They really didn't come with much in the way of options. There were a few accessories but no packages or add-ons (other than the hard top.)

I've been lurking on the S2KI racing/competition board for a while trying to make a decision between an NC or an S2000. Looking at results for the stock classes the '00-03 AP1 and 04-09 AP2 cars seem close enough that one doesn't necessarily stand out. They go back and forth but even with the CR edition there isn't a clear favorite. The new STR class is still too new to tell as no one necessarily has the most optimum setup yet.

In my search I've found there are a huge number of them with branded titles, about 60% due to theft and the rest damage of some sort so you might pay close attention to that.

Also the aftermarket support seems nothing like that of the Miata. Some performance parts were made by smaller companies that haven't been heard for in a while and there just isn't the sheer number of them out there to support awesome single stop shops like Flyin' Miata. Add to that the with the discontinuation of the model some people have just stopped carrying parts. So while parts are out there, they aren't as easy to find.

Before you give up on the STS Miata, consult the real rulebook or ask an official. Miata.net has been know to say "stuff." I hate to see a guy give up because he heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy, who...

I really don't care about aftermarket performance at all. The only parts it might get are tweaks it needs to be competitive in BS, and I probably won't even bother with those until I'm fast enough in the car to absolutely need them. I'd want to keep it as stock as possible for resale and uncomplicated enjoyment of the car while not racing :). The most significant mod will probably be a trailer hitch to tow tires. STR looks like a lot of fun, but part of my motivation is to avoid the mod bug this time around, and keep the car more useful and civilized. Maybe once the class matures and I get bored of the stock car it could be an intriguing option though.

If you meant general replacement parts, I kind of expect that. I hope I won't need much of those anyway, S2ks have a great reputation for reliability, which is a big factor in my desire for one.

Half the Miatas in Mid Georgia run in STS2. There doesn't seem to be a problem, unless your local group is overly strict on the rules. Start beating the hell out of everybody, then we'll notice.

Have you found an actual scan of the 93 brochure? Or just what somebody has typed in somewhere?

If you have an actual brochure or a full scan of one showing that you could get the VLSD with whatever model you have I would just keep that with your autox stuff to show anybody that has questions and not worry about it.

When I bought my Mazdaspeed Miata I test drove a S2000 first. I thought that was the car I really wanted. I thought it was a little underwhelming to drive when I kept the revs in the sane area. I liked the car, but in the end it was more $ than I wanted to spend at the time, so I saved money and got a factory torquoboostered car instead. I think S2000 fenders are just right.

$12k will get you a 2zz swapped MR-S - the poor man's Elise. Although, if you want a car that will competitive in autocross form then the 2zz MR-S is out. If you want a stupidly fun daily driver then get a 2zz MR-S.

I've seen a scan of the '93 brochure, but I can't find one now. The issue is partly mental, I am seriously unmotivated to keep working on a car that might get me DQd as soon as I start doing well with it. Not to mention that it may never be a match for an STS CRX no matter how much more money/time I pour into it. I do plan to fully research the legality issue before I go through with any of this, but to some extent I am just burnt out with this thing and want to mix it up and try something new.

On a side note, the car is running/driving/braking as well as it ever has since I've owned it right now :).

Is the S2000 better for a taller driver? I've never sat in one and at 6'5" the Miata is a bit of a stretch for me.

Josh wrote: I am seriously unmotivated to keep working on a car that might get me DQd as soon as I start doing well with it. but to some extent I am just burnt out with this thing and want to mix it up and try something new.

As a long time on and off STS2/STS miata competitor if you can show me something official that shows you could get it that way I would have no problems with it and I don't think anybody else would either. I use the miata.net information as a guide because it seems mostly correct. But I always say to do your own research to confirm.

But if you just want something new I see nothing wrong with an S2K. I have had naughty thoughts about S2K's, Boxsters, NC MX-5's, Corvettes, as well as a few other cars but we are trying to keep costs down right now so are sticking with the STS miata for this year at least.

autoxrs wrote: $12k will get you a 2zz swapped MR-S - the poor man's Elise. Although, if you want a car that will competitive in autocross form then the 2zz MR-S is out. If you want a stupidly fun daily driver then get a 2zz MR-S.

This.

Then just autocross it in whatever class you end up in.

pres589 wrote: Is the S2000 better for a taller driver? I've never sat in one and at 6'5" the Miata is a bit of a stretch for me.

I'm not a tall person (except in torso) and never sat in an S2000, but there is a guy at our local region who can squeeze himself into a miata, but can't get into (or out of) an S2000.

I'd go sit in one though, I assume it will depend a lot on your proportions.

As someone said, it depends upon your proportions. Are you long legged or long waisted?

I'm 6' and the S was much better than the Miata to me, but a friend of mine who's bigger than me fits in the Miata better. The Miata door begins further up the fender than the S and is a little bit easier to get into when my back is acting up, but the S is much more comfortable once I'm in the car.

Both windshield frames will obstruct your view of traffic lights.

I'm 6'1'' 230# and my S2000 fits me fine. Lots of head room and very comfortable. It is a little tight getting in and out, but not really a problem. In reply to the sane rev's comment, I have had several S600's and an S800, currently race an RX7. Anything under 6K is insane!!

93celicaGT2 wrote: This. Then just autocross it in whatever class you end up in.

Plus if you look hard enough and know the right people you can get one for under $8k. The steering on the MR-S is just fantastic.

i doubt anyone is going to talk you out of an S2000.

when i got rid of my STS2 miata, my choices came down to an S2000 or an RX-8. i decided i needed a back seat and a roof for a while after using the miata as my DD for almost three years. i've been running in CS this year and i can say that it's really nice to not have to constantly worry about autoX setup, and it's nice to have a decently comfortable car to drive on a daily basis.

if you think you might want to go to STR with it at some point, there seems to be a big difference between the earlier cars and the '05+ computers. the '05+ is much more easily tuned and i've seen some dyno charts showing massive midrange gains.

I have a friend with an mr-s, and it's a lot of fun to autocross, but it doesn't push the same buttons with me that an S2k does. You guys are also kind of missing my point about wanting to own a more stockish vehicle for a while. The s2k seems to be the best combination of affordability, value retention, toplessness, and awesomeness in stock form that I can think of.

It seems like you have already decided on an S2K. I would try to find on to test drive and see if you like. Then buy it.

S2000's are phenomenal cars to drive in anger and are deadly autocrossers. Like TJ, I'm another one who intended to buy an S2000 but ended up with a turbo Miata instead because I found a great deal. An S2000 is still on my wish list... but my father in law bought one recently, so that's good enough for now ;)

For the street I might suggest that you consider an M Roadster. Endless torque from the 3.2, useable without winding the tach back around to zero and a comfortable high speed highway cruiser. And you already speak BMW.

I really like the S2000, but like some others have mentioned I found them a bit underwhelming in daily use type situations.

If you found an S underwhelming in daily use type situations then you'd have also found a Miata underwhelming.

My son and I have done every low speed test you can imagine (well OK there've been a few high speed tests too) and the S2000 outpulls the MIata in every situation up to VTEC. Once you hit VTEC it rockets away from the Miata.

Driving the S2000 was much like driving my modded first gen RX-7. Kind of a pain in the butt around town but a great deal of fun when you are on it. No torque but a screamer up top. Go drive one and see how you like it. Make sure you get into some stop and go stuff if you are going to live with it everyday.

wcelliot wrote: For the street I might suggest that you consider an M Roadster. Endless torque from the 3.2, useable without winding the tach back around to zero and a comfortable high speed highway cruiser. And you already speak BMW. I really like the S2000, but like some others have mentioned I found them a bit underwhelming in daily use type situations.

A good friend of mine felt the exact same way except it was a Boxster S in comparison as opposed to the M roadster. He kept the Boxster S and sold the S2000.