Sanity-check me: new VW?!

ransom wrote: In reply to slefain: Eek. When you say "late model", what year was your capital combustion device?

2005 Beetle Convertible. Bought from 2nd owner at 48k. Had some little things fixed here and there under warranty. At the 60,001 mark all hell broke loose. All four window regulator crapped out in a 3 month window. The air bag computer crapped out. The LH rear tail light went through bulbs like a fat guy eating Cheetos. The top mechanism popped a few supports thus rendering it immobile. The the final straw was the automatic transmission valvebody ate itself. We sold it at 72k for pretty much what we owed on it (lost a ton of $$$) and were happy to be done with it. I giggled like a maniac as the new owner drove off.

I had a '96 Passat that was a 3rd owner car that eventually broke my soul. I sold it to DukeOfUndersteer for scrap metal price.

VW is a four letter word in my house. My wife wanted to look at the new TDI wagon as well. I had to remind her the technically we could AFFORD to buy it, but we could not AFFORD to own it. She loves her new Hyundai.

Conversely, there's my '03 TDi wagon... nearing 267K miles... and have done little to it other than regular maintenance and a few wear items.

rollins111 wrote: Did you consider the Golf TDI instead of the Jetta? The back seat is fine for me (6ft), you have the versatility of the hatch and the interior is much nicer than the Jetta (hasn't been cheapened yet).

I don't think the Sportwagen's gotten The Cheapening yet. It's rather nice inside. Then again, the TDI DSG we test drove was over $29k, so I'm not going to call it "cheap", either...

As far as reliability - I can't say. I drove mine for a week and then it's been in the shop for 10 days now.

That sure doesn't sound like a good start...

Okay, once upon a time it seems like there were U.S.-made VWs, Mexican VWs, and German VWs. And there were decidedly different reputations for quality between them.

Also, certain models usually or always came from certain locations.

Can we discern anything about where slefain's Beetle came from, where rollins111's Golf was built, and where our would-be Sportwagen was bolted together? If we did, would it tell us anything?

We've got an '09 TDI Jetta DSG sedan. 35K trouble free miles. While it's not a sports car, it's not "not fun to drive." Accelerates well, torque is fun, and is comfy, and the ergonomics are great. Only thing it's been in the shop were for the first 3 10K mile services, there have also been 2 recalls done at 2 of the scheduled intervals.

Best part you can drive it like a teenager and still get ~40 mpg.

• Lee

ransom wrote: Okay, once upon a time it seems like there were U.S.-made VWs, Mexican VWs, and German VWs. And there were decidedly different reputations for quality between them. Also, certain models usually or always came from certain locations. Can we discern anything about where slefain's Beetle came from, where rollins111's Golf was built, and where our would-be Sportwagen was bolted together? If we did, would it tell us anything?

I don't know about currently, but I believe all the MKIV wagons were German built. Most of the regular Golfs and Jettas were made in Mexico, and I think a lot of the GTI's were made in Brazil. I think the Passats were all German built too.

I own a 2012 Mazda5 with a six speed and I am disappointed with the fuel economy. I have averaged 26.7 mpg so far; I'm hoping that will open up once it is a little more broken in, it has 1300 miles on it now.

I looked at the priusV also and it doesn't come manual and although the starting price is lowish I couldn't find any for less than 37k which was more than I was willing to spend. I the fit works for you I would go that route, it is a 3/4 scale Mazda5 and will handle plenty of crap and take a beating.

A co-worker has a 2010 TDI cup with a six speed and has had outstanding economy and no warranty issues; although there is talk of a sludge issue again as well as a cavitating pump issue. Ive been a VW guy for years but I can't see buying a new one.

chandlerGTi wrote: I own a 2012 Mazda5 with a six speed and I am disappointed with the fuel economy. I have averaged 26.7 mpg so far; I'm hoping that will open up once it is a little more broken in, it has 1300 miles on it now.

You're disappointed with nearly 27MPG on part-ethanol swill in something the size of a Mazda5??!?! It will get better as the engine breaks in, but also check your tire pressures. Roof rack crossbars or no?

Javelin wrote:

chandlerGTi wrote: I own a 2012 Mazda5 with a six speed and I am disappointed with the fuel economy. I have averaged 26.7 mpg so far; I'm hoping that will open up once it is a little more broken in, it has 1300 miles on it now.

You're disappointed with nearly 27MPG on part-ethanol swill in something the size of a Mazda5??!?! It will get better as the engine breaks in, but also check your tire pressures. Roof rack crossbars or no?

Haha, no roofrack on. As for it's size it is quite small and I was averaging 28 in my E39 touring. It's OK though, it fits all of my requirements.

chandlerGTi wrote:

Javelin wrote:

chandlerGTi wrote: I own a 2012 Mazda5 with a six speed and I am disappointed with the fuel economy. I have averaged 26.7 mpg so far; I'm hoping that will open up once it is a little more broken in, it has 1300 miles on it now.

You're disappointed with nearly 27MPG on part-ethanol swill in something the size of a Mazda5??!?! It will get better as the engine breaks in, but also check your tire pressures. Roof rack crossbars or no?

Haha, no roofrack on. As for it's size it is quite small and I was averaging 28 in my E39 touring. It's OK though, it fits all of my requirements.

Averaging 28 in an E39 Touring? I call shenanigans.

jrw1621 wrote: Glad to help There is also the Lexus version called the CT200. The body seems similar to the new Prius so maybe you could visit the Lexus dealership rather than Toyota again. This Lexus has been out for a year so CPO may be an option.

you can also rebadge it as a Mazda3, since it looks just like it, and avoid both the Prius stigma and the Lexus stigma.......

rotard wrote: Averaging 28 in an E39 Touring? I call shenanigans.

I believe it, if the use is primarily hwy.

I drive 120 miles a day. Interstate one way and back roads home.

I just told a friend of mine about the Lexus CT200. His lexus is reaching 150,000 miles and he wants to trade it in.. but wanted higher miliage than he was getting. He was looking at the Jetta TDi.. but hated how stark the interior was.. and the prius..

the CT 200 might be what he needs. Thanks for the heads up

mad_machine wrote: I just told a friend of mine about the Lexus CT200. His lexus is reaching 150,000 miles and he wants to trade it in.. but wanted higher miliage than he was getting. He was looking at the Jetta TDi.. but hated how stark the interior was.. and the prius.. the CT 200 might be what he needs. Thanks for the heads up

Odd. The CT200 should CRUSH the TDI for mileage.

Even the Prius V beats it by a solid 30%: http://www.insideline.com/volkswagen/jetta/2011/comparison-test-2012-toyota-prius-v-three-vs-2011-volkswagen-jetta-sportwagen-tdi.html

If I were in this predicament, I'd sacrifice the clutch pedal for a Prius V or a CT200. Rock solid reliable, crazy low cost of ownership. Save $ and spend it on your other toys :)

I just spent some time checking out a ct200 at an auto show and here's the thing.. It is WAAAAAAAAYYYYYY smaller than almost anything else mentioned here. Smaller than a fit as far as usable room.

That said, i was blown away by how much more i liked it in person than on the internet.

I did check out the Prius V as well and i highly recommend giving it a place in real-life tryouts (dont eliminate it during the internet phase). It's roomy and the interior experience is very 'normal' compared to the other Prius. And, by all accounts, Prii exceed expectations on mpg and pretty much never break. Ive only driven a 2nd gen model but i can say that i would enjoy owning one.

A mazda5 diesel would be.. frankly.. wonderful. But i dont know whether to believe it at this point. Let's hope for it. And while we're at it, let's hope for some diesel subarus too, finally. Until then, im not particularly impressed with the Mazda5's mileage either. I want to like it a whole lot, but the mpg has to get better before i can really buy in. Even the 4000-4500lb "mini"-van crowd is all rated 27-28 hwy now too.

In reply to Vigo: Bingo, I also have a 2007 grand caravan with a 3.8 and it will return 28mpg in highway driving. I put 36k on it in 2010 and averaged 26.4 although not many see that. Tough to fathom that the mz5 gets the same mileage as it's gigantic brethren.

Some reference Fuelly numbers:

2000 Civic (ref car): 31mpg http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/civic
Ct200h: 42 mpg http://www.fuelly.com/car/lexus/ct200h
Mazda5: 24mpg http://www.fuelly.com/car/mazda/5
Jetta TDi: 36mpg http://www.fuelly.com/car/volkswagen/jetta/diesel%20l4/wagon
Prius V: 43mpg http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius%20v (low # of data points)
Caravan: 19mpg http://www.fuelly.com/car/dodge/caravan
Fit 34mpg http://www.fuelly.com/car/honda/fit

The hybrids excel when driving involves some city or stop and go. For example, my commute is all highway - about 100 miles a day. My TDI average fuel economy is 49 mpg over 60k miles, all types of weather... significantly better than a coworkers Prius with a similar type of drive.

I drive a Mazda 3 hatch and love it. Bummed to hear it didn't fit you size wise. I'm on the shorter end of the spectrum so I can't relate on that point. I find the car to be a great balance of utility, reliability, fuel economy and fun to drive. Mine just turned 174k miles and has been low maintenance. I have averaged 31 mpg over the last 40k miles - but that's mostly on the highway so it's probably a bit skewed.

I thought the Mazda diesels were going to be Mazda 6's out of the gate and not Mazda 5's. Don't recall where I heard that though.

A friend of mine just picked up a brand new Prius 3 (closeouts) for around $23k. From a reliability, utility and fuel economy stand point I think it's a great car. The full cycle ecology arguments are outside my sphere of expertise, but I know what you're getting at. It is not sporty by any stretch.

I will add one thing about the Prius. It's engaging in a different way. The video game like experience of hypermiling is addictive, fun and easy in the Prius with its wealth of information on your dashboard.

The hybrids excel when driving involves some city or stop and go.

This may be true, but they dont NOT excel anywhere else, either. The only thing that can really bring their numbers down is being near wide open throttle.

Case in point.. at 70 mph, a prius is getting better mpg than most things going 70.

Same at 80

Same at 90.

I would venture to say same at 100mph.

The only place it falls apart is when you're near top speed (wot all the time) or you accelerate hard from light to light constantly (wot all the time). If it's mostly a cruiser, it will meet or beat the numbers any comparable car can put out while cruising.

My Insight gets 38mpg @ 90 mph, tested over almost 300 miles. But WOT 0-60 constantly and it might "only" do as well on mpg as a 1.5L non-hybrid doing the same. It would still beat the pants off anything else, even WOT.

Remember, fuel-efficiency is a RESULT of everything-else-efficiency, and the everything-else-efficiency is what makes Hybrids get good highway numbers, not the fact that they have a hybrid drivetrain, per se. The design ethic of hybrids makes them get good highway numbers, while the hybrid drivetrain makes them get good city numbers.

Vigo wrote:

The hybrids excel when driving involves some city or stop and go.

or you accelerate hard from light to light constantly (wot all the time).

True, however you can do this in a hybrid and still achieve very good mileage. A co-worker of mine has a Civic Hybrid and accelerates hard from light to light only to stab the brakes at the next light (I ride with him to get lunch often and am subjected to this ). His lifetime average ~96k miles is 42mpg. Energy recovery still takes place, even when you drive like a jackass.

Actually, I'd bet Civic Hybrid vs. Civic disparity in gas mileage would be much greater when both cars are driven like above vs. both cars driven like a grandma.

Vigo wrote: Remember, fuel-efficiency is a RESULT of everything-else-efficiency, and the everything-else-efficiency is what makes Hybrids get good highway numbers, not the fact that they have a hybrid drivetrain, per se. The design ethic of hybrids makes them get good highway numbers, while the hybrid drivetrain makes them get good city numbers.

You make it sound like only hybrids are designed for good efficiency. The new TDIs are only 1 mpg behind the new Prius' on the highway, and it appears that I'm getting 20% better mileage than many in the prius (and new TDI). I'm just taking umbrage to the point that Prii are "way better" than the TDI for efficiency.

My mileage numbers (lifetime avg 49mpg) are with a cruising speed of 75-80mph, FWIW.

I don't know if we're totally done for, but I just heard back from the credit union car guy, and he's trying one last place he might be able to find who in turn might be able to source one, but it looks like 3-6 months before any hope of a manual TDI wagon, with also rumblings that they're just flat discontinuing the model...

We may wind up with a Fit by default. Or dragging this whole thing out 'til we can drive the TDI back to back with a CX-5. Or maybe the 2015 Atomicar...

Oh, and apparently 2012 Imprezas (some? all? I don't know) have holds on them for faulty master cylinders. That was the other one that we just realized we never even looked at...

Maybe we should just buy an old Jaguar and join Zipcar in case we actually need to go anywhere...

Gaaaaaaahhhhhhh!

The new VW TDI's are rated at 42 mpg while the Prius is rated 48 so I don't get where you're seeing a 1 mpg difference.

My MPG average during the summer is mid to high 50's in my Prius and I don't have to pay the premium for diesel fuel, which averages another 25 cents a gallon in these parts. Winter hurts me because the engine doesn't shut off because it's busy keeping me warm, so I'm only averaging 46 mpg right now.

That's not to say I haven't thought of grabbing a VW TDI, but the reliability issues keep me away. My brother went from being a VW die hard to being hating the brand after three consecutive lemons (2 Mexican built models and one from Germany).