My point wasn't the big three just selling rwd ANYTHING. It's a rwd sports cars for under 20k. Not 25k. Not 20k. UNDER 20k. Make my honda fit mid engine.
My point wasn't the big three just selling rwd ANYTHING. It's a rwd sports cars for under 20k. Not 25k. Not 20k. UNDER 20k. Make my honda fit mid engine.
All of the late model Toyota/Scion that I have driven lately (XB,Tc and Corolla) have been terrible. Super slow steering with no feel, mushy soft brake pedal again with no feel and terrible throttle response.
I really want to drive a FRZBRZ to see what it's like. Other than that I have zero interest in a Toyotion.
Trackmouse wrote: My point wasn't the big three just selling rwd ANYTHING. It's a rwd sports cars for under 20k. Not 25k. Not 20k. UNDER 20k. Make my honda fit mid engine.
What's the manufacturer's motivation for such a thing? Does a current platform exist that could be shared for something like this to divert some of the cost? If not, you're asking them to spend big money (billions) to create a stripped out performance vehicle that sells for peanuts to a very small segment of the population. Younger generations as a whole have little money to spend, and are increasingly less interested in driving. The ones that do have money and an interest in driving want tech stuff that you couldn't afford to put in a sub-20k vehicle. It's not a great demographic to gamble on developing a bespoke, cheap, RWD platform.
Maybe there would be older drivers interested as well, but it's doubtful that a sub 20k car would be refined or comfortable enough that many would be interested in purchasing one. If you had 20k to spend on a car, would you get the brand new, small, loud, uncomfortable little tin can, or would you get a 4 year old pony car with more room, leather, plenty of tech and equal or better performance that makes fun noises when you hit the pedal and has massive aftermarket? 99% of people would probably choose option 2.
I just don't see the market that you think would suddenly appear.
Why would GM or Ford develop a "pony car lite" that would just steal sales from their higher profit, pride and joy?
FCA barely has the money to develop new profit generating crossovers, let alone a small production, low profit vehicle like you're asking for.
Toyota is the largest car company in the world, and with their scale they still had to partner with Subaru to split the expensive costs of developing the FRS/BRZ, which barely moves off lots for $25k, and gets blasted for a lack of power.
VW is way too interested in profits to take a gamble like that, and with their emissions scandal costs mounting, they're in no way going to risk any losses.
Mazda has the Miata, but it's well over your price point, and as a 2 seater, convertible is basically a 3rd or 4th car with no practicality.
Honda might be able to send over a RWD Kei car or something, but what US buyer wants a tiny 100hp car that gets run down by soccer mom's 5500lb mobile living room on the interstate?
Scion did some interesting things that mother Toyota never would have done themselves. They did the no haggle pricing thing. They had the fold flat 'instant grandchild' seats in the first gen Tc. The xB which was probably their best car never would have come here with a Toyota badge.
It was a neat experiment. If Toyota corporate culture was a bit more adventurous it wouldn't have been necessary, but they're not, so it was.
I think the only thing I really liked about Scion was the "Scion A/V" marketing campaign they had for the past few years. They hosted a bunch of free concerts and funded some tours for lesser known bands. Someone over there also liked "The Metals" because they were always hosting shows and sponsoring tours for Metal bands like Corrosion of Conformity, Pallbearer, and more. They even had a partnership with Profound Lore Records, which is a good little label for the real heavy stuff. They even gave away EP's, discs of live shows, and more. Hell, I saw a band once, and they gave away free 7" vinyl of a live performance of the band from a previous tour!
I don't know of another car maker that did more for the small guys in the music world, but then again, that's a weird thing for a car company to be doing.
Toyota is adventurous enough with some of the aftermarket bits they sell via TRD, but they can't seem to get past the conservative-ness for the cars as a whole.
Heck, if you want a supercharger for a tC, or that Camry your mom bought (or even a Tacoma), they'll sell you one. Or some lowering springs, etc. But they'd never just put the damn blower on it to start with (old Previas and MR2s excepted, but that was before Toyota became super-bland).
rslifkin wrote: Toyota is adventurous enough with some of the aftermarket bits they sell via TRD, but they can't seem to get past the conservative-ness for the cars as a whole. Heck, if you want a supercharger for a tC, or that Camry your mom bought (or even a Tacoma), they'll sell you one. Or some lowering springs, etc. But they'd never just put the damn blower on it to start with (old Previas and MR2s excepted, but that was before Toyota became super-bland).
I knew someone who had a Tundra with the TRD blower. That thing was stout. I also had friends at Toyota dealerships who said that the TRD blower kit for the FR-S was super half-assed. Hideously expensive and it didn't even come with half the stuff you needed, like brackets or belts.
STM317 wrote:Trackmouse wrote: My point wasn't the big three just selling rwd ANYTHING. It's a rwd sports cars for under 20k. Not 25k. Not 20k. UNDER 20k. Make my honda fit mid engine.What's the manufacturer's motivation for such a thing? Does a current platform exist that could be shared for something like this to divert some of the cost? If not, you're asking them to spend big money (billions) to create a stripped out performance vehicle that sells for peanuts to a very small segment of the population. Younger generations as a whole have little money to spend, and are increasingly less interested in driving. The ones that do have money and an interest in driving want tech stuff that you couldn't afford to put in a sub-20k vehicle. It's not a great demographic to gamble on developing a bespoke, cheap, RWD platform. Maybe there would be older drivers interested as well, but it's doubtful that a sub 20k car would be refined or comfortable enough that many would be interested in purchasing one. If you had 20k to spend on a car, would you get the brand new, small, loud, uncomfortable little tin can, or would you get a 4 year old pony car with more room, leather, plenty of tech and equal or better performance that makes fun noises when you hit the pedal and has massive aftermarket? 99% of people would probably choose option 2. I just don't see the market that you think would suddenly appear. Why would GM or Ford develop a "pony car lite" that would just steal sales from their higher profit, pride and joy? FCA barely has the money to develop new profit generating crossovers, let alone a small production, low profit vehicle like you're asking for. Toyota is the largest car company in the world, and with their scale they still had to partner with Subaru to split the expensive costs of developing the FRS/BRZ, which barely moves off lots for $25k, and gets blasted for a lack of power. VW is way too interested in profits to take a gamble like that, and with their emissions scandal costs mounting, they're in no way going to risk any losses. Mazda has the Miata, but it's well over your price point, and as a 2 seater, convertible is basically a 3rd or 4th car with no practicality. Honda might be able to send over a RWD Kei car or something, but what US buyer wants a tiny 100hp car that gets run down by soccer mom's 5500lb mobile living room on the interstate?
Technically, GM already has a "pony car lite" platform they could dust off. During the initial development of the Alpha platform they had three flavors: Alpha mini, Alpha, and Alpha+.
Alpha mini was slated to underpin the Kappa replacements that died with Pontiac and Saturn. If the Chevy Code 130R concept ever sees the light of day, Alpha mini is what it would be on.
STM317 wrote:Trackmouse wrote: My point wasn't the big three just selling rwd ANYTHING. It's a rwd sports cars for under 20k. Not 25k. Not 20k. UNDER 20k. Make my honda fit mid engine.What's the manufacturer's motivation for such a thing? Does a current platform exist that could be shared for something like this to divert some of the cost? If not, you're asking them to spend big money (billions) to create a stripped out performance vehicle that sells for peanuts to a very small segment of the population. Younger generations as a whole have little money to spend, and are increasingly less interested in driving. The ones that do have money and an interest in driving want tech stuff that you couldn't afford to put in a sub-20k vehicle. It's not a great demographic to gamble on developing a bespoke, cheap, RWD platform. Maybe there would be older drivers interested as well, but it's doubtful that a sub 20k car would be refined or comfortable enough that many would be interested in purchasing one. If you had 20k to spend on a car, would you get the brand new, small, loud, uncomfortable little tin can, or would you get a 4 year old pony car with more room, leather, plenty of tech and equal or better performance that makes fun noises when you hit the pedal and has massive aftermarket? 99% of people would probably choose option 2. I just don't see the market that you think would suddenly appear. Why would GM or Ford develop a "pony car lite" that would just steal sales from their higher profit, pride and joy? FCA barely has the money to develop new profit generating crossovers, let alone a small production, low profit vehicle like you're asking for. Toyota is the largest car company in the world, and with their scale they still had to partner with Subaru to split the expensive costs of developing the FRS/BRZ, which barely moves off lots for $25k, and gets blasted for a lack of power. VW is way too interested in profits to take a gamble like that, and with their emissions scandal costs mounting, they're in no way going to risk any losses. Mazda has the Miata, but it's well over your price point, and as a 2 seater, convertible is basically a 3rd or 4th car with no practicality. Honda might be able to send over a RWD Kei car or something, but what US buyer wants a tiny 100hp car that gets run down by soccer mom's 5500lb mobile living room on the interstate?
This.
You know who that would be perfect for? My dad. In a position to buy a new car, not worried about fitting kids or a hockey stick in it anymore, has always liked vehicles like that (MGB, Opel GT, E30, Miata). Unfortunately he is 62 with a bad back. He's considering an X1 or a GLK because it is easier to get into.
The market, unfortunately is not there.
theenico wrote: Technically, GM already has a "pony car lite" platform they could dust off. During the initial development of the Alpha platform they had three flavors: Alpha mini, Alpha, and Alpha+. Alpha mini was slated to underpin the Kappa replacements that died with Pontiac and Saturn. If the Chevy Code 130R concept ever sees the light of day, Alpha mini is what it would be on.
I totally concede that they have the ability to produce a small, RWD car. But I can't see how they'd keep it under $20k with enough of a separation in cost/performance to keep from stealing low end Camaro sales.
That concept you mention came out around the time that the Toyobaru's were hitting the streets, and if they'd lit the world on fire with sales, we might just have a small RWD GM right now, but the market for The Twins seems to have slowed quite a bit which probably isn't helping to goad GM (or anybody else) into making a competitor. I think instead of getting a small Toyobaru competitor from GM, we got the turbo 4 cyl Camaro, and honestly that's fine with me.
it's not just cars that are suffering this problem. Look at housing and boats.
Years ago when friends of mine were starting a family, they went out and took a loan to build their first home. That's right, they wanted a brand new, half a million dollar home with all the bells, whistles, and room.
In boats, the days of a basic sailboat are long gone.. people want air conditioning, heating, hot water, computer everything, and the ability to sit back and steer with a single finger on the wheels.
The days of no frills, back to basics, are gone, dead, and buried
In reply to mad_machine:
You're looking at the wrong boats.
I was more referring to cruising boats.. not small racing dinghies. I am all for Pardey's exultation "go small, go simple, go now"
STM317 wrote:theenico wrote: Technically, GM already has a "pony car lite" platform they could dust off. During the initial development of the Alpha platform they had three flavors: Alpha mini, Alpha, and Alpha+. Alpha mini was slated to underpin the Kappa replacements that died with Pontiac and Saturn. If the Chevy Code 130R concept ever sees the light of day, Alpha mini is what it would be on.I totally concede that they have the ability to produce a small, RWD car. But I can't see how they'd keep it under $20k with enough of a separation in cost/performance to keep from stealing low end Camaro sales. That concept you mention came out around the time that the Toyobaru's were hitting the streets, and if they'd lit the world on fire with sales, we might just have a small RWD GM right now, but the market for The Twins seems to have slowed quite a bit which probably isn't helping to goad GM (or anybody else) into making a competitor. I think instead of getting a small Toyobaru competitor from GM, we got the turbo 4 cyl Camaro, and honestly that's fine with me.
I agree. The market is fairly small for that kind of car. While I was still working for GM, I had high hopes that the Camaro would use Alpha mini and weigh closer to an even 3,000 lbs.
Speaking of small RWD GM things...
I saw a brand new ATS Premium coupe last weekend. It was the right size. It was smaller than a 2010-15 Camaro, and looked like it had actual windows instead of mail slots. The new 2016 Camaros are based off of this car, so there's still hope for those who want a smaller car.
Back to our regularly scheduled Toyota bashing. 
Flight Service wrote: In reply to mad_machine:
Though a great boat, I do not think that the Flying Scot is the future of sailboats. This is a boat that was first designed in 1957 an other than going from original wood to fiberglass, very little has changed.
Here is the hottest selling small race boat, J70. First built in 2013. 22 ft long. Designed to race with a crew of three. Priced new and ready to race, $50k. Yes, $50 thousand!
mad_machine wrote: it's not just cars that are suffering this problem. Look at housing and boats. Years ago when friends of mine were starting a family, they went out and took a loan to build their first home. That's right, they wanted a brand new, half a million dollar home with all the bells, whistles, and room. In boats, the days of a basic sailboat are long gone.. people want air conditioning, heating, hot water, computer everything, and the ability to sit back and steer with a single finger on the wheels. The days of no frills, back to basics, are gone, dead, and buried
There's no shortage of basic houses on the market; it may be that there's enough existing basic houses out there that builders haven't been making all that many new ones. My wife and I had no trouble finding a lot of basic and relatively small houses when we moved a year ago, but very few of them had recent build dates.
In reply to MadScientistMatt:
The problem is land is often expensive (especially where mad-machine lives) and when the value of the land is a large percentage of the value of the house/property as a whole, it makes less sense to build a small house on the plot when building as large as allowed will generate more profit.
I'd have been happy if I could've gotten a 2dr Focus - but you can't get two doors to save your life, at least from most mfg's. GTI/Golf is two door available, and they sell. 2dr Cobalts used to sell a lot it seemed. I used to see a lot of tCs when they came out, new ones not so much. Heck, I'd have been really interested in a 2dr Fiesta back when I was looking, can't get that either.
But "cheap" small light weight rwd performers? I don't think we'll ever see again, new Miata excepted (God please continue to bless Mazda...). Especially something semi-practicable.
Makes me glad I bought the FR-S when I had the chance. It could have been one of those "wish I would have..."
Appleseed wrote: Makes me glad I bought the FR-S when I had the chance. It could have been one of those "wish I would have..."
FR-S will still be made for the foreseeable future, just badged as a Toyota FR-S...
That foreseeable future is rocky, at best. There is no talk of a second generation.
Appleseed wrote: That foreseeable future is rocky, at best. There is no talk of a second generation.
Agreed, It's highest sales numbers were 18,327 in 2013 and every year since has been a steady decline, with 2015 sales barely breaking out of the 4-digit mark. And I don't think that the BRZ has broken out of the 4 digit mark and has been on a steady decline.
The problem with these cars is that everyone who wanted one, immediately went out and got one. And the owners aren't the kind of people who are going to trade it in on a new one every other year, like Cadillac owners. They're going to hold onto it and modify it and make it their own.
So then sales falls to average non-enthusiast people. But most of them aren't going to put up with the RWD in the winter, the back seat that is worthless, the high-strung buzzy driveline, sporty suspension or the fact that it requires non-ethanol fuel (Or the high pressure fuel pump calls it quits).
Ian F wrote: In reply to MadScientistMatt: The problem is land is often expensive (especially where mad-machine lives) and when the value of the land is a large percentage of the value of the house/property as a whole, it makes less sense to build a small house on the plot when building as large as allowed will generate more profit.
Fair enough. We were shopping in a place where land was pretty cheap. It does seem like most of the basic houses on the market are older, existing houses rather than new developments, but it also seems like there's enough of those on the market that there wasn't a real shortage of them.
NickD wrote:Appleseed wrote: That foreseeable future is rocky, at best. There is no talk of a second generation.Agreed, It's highest sales numbers were 18,327 in 2013 and every year since has been a steady decline, with 2015 sales barely breaking out of the 4-digit mark. And I don't think that the BRZ has broken out of the 4 digit mark and has been on a steady decline. The problem with these cars is that everyone who wanted one, immediately went out and got one. And the owners aren't the kind of people who are going to trade it in on a new one every other year, like Cadillac owners. They're going to hold onto it and modify it and make it their own. So then sales falls to average non-enthusiast people. But most of them aren't going to put up with the RWD in the winter, the back seat that is worthless, the high-strung buzzy driveline, sporty suspension or the fact that it requires non-ethanol fuel (Or the high pressure fuel pump calls it quits).
Call me dumb, but how much marketing of these things is there? I don't watch a lot of TV, but I've seen plenty of Toyota and Subaru commercials, none of them with the frisbee twins.
That's not a failure of the car, they're nice to drive - though I think the ultra linear powerband undermines the car's image - if you get in to a sports car*, it should not behave like the Camry one just drove. If the aftermarket has removed it and improved it, I'm sure Toyota could do the same.
Those are easy fixes, and they are good cars - just poor strategy.
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