school, engineering, and life questions

Ok guys. I have a few questions for anyone who feels like sharing some life knowledge with a young 24 year old. I have come to a point and time in my life where I feel I need to move on and up and challenge my self further. I have talked to a few close friends and family members about this, but I feel it helps to get unbiased views from strangers some times.
First a bit about my self. I have always been good at technical things in which I can use my photo memory and problem solving skills to figure something out and then bring it into the physical world with my hands. Ever sins I was a small, child I have been building things. I used my moms kitchen mixers as power drills, and my favorite presents were old electronics I could take apart and study. Sins graduating high school I have been a carpenter in SF (CA), studied stone masonry in German (I speak German), and am finishing my AA at the SF City College Culinary School this year. I spend all my free time, money, and energy on learning about cars and how they work, building my 2002 and then rebuilding it , and learning skills like welding. It has been a struggle to find something that is truly satisfying, and keeps my over active brain working hard on problems. Cooking has been fun, a challenge, and has taught me a lot. I love it, but it is just not right for me. While my friends, who are truly cooks, get lost in culinary mags and cook books, I find my self reading GRM and "Competition Car Suspension, A Practical Handbook by Allan Staniforth." I just can not muster the same amount of enthusiasm for cooking and food I see burning in their eyes. How ever, everyone I talk to says they can see the same hunger in my eyes when I talk about cars and building/creating anything to do with them. What it comes down to is this. Next year I feel like I need to take the step from being a DIY guy to a professional of some sort. I am looking for some guidance in this.
I would like to find something where I can be creative and design things, and still get my hands dirty. I have never been good at spending long hours in doors with paperwork, and need to move around. I need to do something that challenges me every day with new problems to figure out. Something with a mix of engineering and dirty work would be perfect! I have thought about being a mechanic, but would hate to get stuck at a dealership bolting parts on and off cars all day. It seams like there is no room for creativity or problem solving there. A dream job would be something along the lines of working at a small company that develops and builds electric racing bikes (I know someone who does that, who has a rally prepped 510 lol). That would be a blast! What ever it is, I would like to stay in California, Origin, or Washington. Does anyone have any suggestions for me? Schools, degrees, jobs?

Thanks so much for your time guys! Your ideas are truly appreciated.

PS. English is my second language and I still spell everything the way it sounds (like German), and my dyslexic tendencies do not help, so if my spelling is sad bare with me

My two cents - go get a mechanical engineering degree. I work in the defense industry as an administrative guy (estimating/finance and contracts), and I think I have a decent feel for what the engineering guys do.

mechanical you'll design stuff, and depending on the company structure, you'll do some build and prototyping as well.

I suppose there is some build and prototype in software and/or systems, but there's an awful lot of coding in sw and a lot of paper analysis in systems.

If you're in integration and test, you'll do a lot of breaking things and be involved in analysis there, but might not be quite as much "design".

It depends on the company, but I would think that in any type of manufacturing or development it's the same thing, whether it's cars, refrigerators, or defense items.

I'm an old guy now, and wish that when I was your age I'd have done the mechanical thing and worked for one of the auto manufacturers, suspension design or something....

Good luck!

canoe

... or maybe it's just my paranoia as iadr would call it

Congratulations. You are wise beyond your years. You both know what drives you, and are willing to ask for advice. It will get you far.

First off, get a degree. Get the most advanced degree you are able to. It will mean something when you get to be my age (about twice yours). But you will have the temptation to move on very early. Don't quit.

I think a lot like you. I didn't get an advanced degree. I wish I had. The degree doesn't change your abilities, but it will change your opportunities.

After that, consider mechanical engineering, and look for an opportunity to build prototypes. There's a great company near here full of crazy engineers building prototypes of all kinds of unusual and exciting new products. They are always pushing the envelope. You would like working there.

Then, make sure you work to continue expanding your formal education and knowledge base forever. It is a rapidly changing world, and that won't change. If you become satisfied in one career and complacent in pursuing further degrees, it will limit your opportunities later in life.

Great post! Good luck!

Hello, SVreX gave some excellent advice, but being a Mechanical Engineer about a year away from being able to sit for the P.E. let me give a little different perspective.

Engineers don't get rich. If you don't acquire scholarships or grants you are looking at $40K in debt when you graduate for a good Engineering school. Your college experience won't be the traditional "fun" Your buddies will go out partying and you will be studying thermo and diff eq. You will probably go to work somewhere the people overlook your true contribution to the company. You will answer to a person that probably went to college, partied 24/7 while you were studying and has no clue what you do.

I would not go for more than a bachelors degree in engineering. Unlike other professions, the master's doesn't give a leg up as much. If I had it to do over again I would do a BSME (which I have) and an MBA. If you are doing pure research, or a new tech field (by new tech I mean no processes developed, you didn't learn about the base principles in school etc.) a grad degree would help, other wise no. Besides, it takes most people 4.5 to 5 years to complete a modern engineering program.

www.eng-tips.com is a great forum to read. Do not post. That site is for working engineers only and they take it very seriously. It should give you a good feel for what current engineers are dealing with.

So if you like being underpaid and held overly responsible, bust your ass and not get recognized in your company, putting in obnoxiously long hours, and being the go-to person when the E36 M3 hits the fan...

Good Luck and welcome to the profession.

Oh yeah one more little thing, don't expect your days to be very consistent. If there is one thing working as an engineer has taught me you will get thrown into everything with little to no notice.

My avatar pic is from a business trip from one such instance, (and no it wasn't me driving)

If you want to get your hands dirty a lot, consider Engineering Technician instead of Engineer. A lot of engineering is spent with a paper and calculator. The technicians are the ones who do a lot of the testing and fiddling.

If the idea of spending years in college beating your brains out doesn't appeal to you, that's ok. It doesn't all require a degree.

There are restoration shops for example. Office equipment repair work is surpisingly varied and interesting. Aircraft repair is very demanding, and almost never boring.

The world of electrical bicycles is very small. Your best bet there is go it yourself. An engineering degree certainly would help your understanding of the bits and bobs, but only through the education process. Something you can gain without the degree and classroom.

Engineering has taken me from oil exploration in Nigeria, to Brewery ownership, to robotics, to cardiac research. As I approach the end of the career path, I can say iit has been interesting from the start.

A lot of what flight service says is true. Not all bad, but best to go in aware.

Engineering is one of the few fields where you know on day one pretty much what you will be earning when you retire... the same as when you started. Keep the resume up-to date end of project layoffs are more the norm than the exception and engineers are pretty much like lightbulbs in managment's eyes.

The education itself is pretty dry...very little room for creativity while cramming physics and calculus into your head. Calculus is the 9/16" wrench of the engineering shop, so well worth stocking up on!

That said, engineering is the liberal arts of our days; it explains how and why the world works.

One field to consider that still has applications for creative, fast paced,small team engineering teams is bioengineering/medical devices. I work for such a firm and can say it has been an interesting six years. Today it is a more specialized education, but there are a large number of people who hire, from small start-ups to industrial conglomerates like medtronic.

You strike me as a guy who is going to land on his feet regardless.

I am just starting my career as a mechanical engineer and I will plus one to a lot of what FlightService said. I don't agree about the Master's degree. School is hard and sometimes it sucks. I did occasionally party in school maybe once a weekend but it was also rare for me not pull an all nighter for school or a project at least once a week. The biggest advice I can give you is get involved in engineering projects like Formula SAE or Design Build Fly or whatever your school offers. Any interview I have been in that has been a bigger talking point then anything else.

As a Mechanical Engineer who recently passed the PE, I would say it's not all like what Flight Service said. I design heating and cooling systems, plumbing systems, and boiler plant piping. I am fairly well compensated, my company has only 20 people and everyone in charge is a professional in their field (ie. architect or engineer), and my days are pretty predictable.

I graduated in December of 2004, my college loan was only $20k and I went to one of the top ten Mechanical Engineer schools in the nation.

I went to college for 4 1/2 years. Do as I did, and take less classes at a time. You won't be partying as much as some of the kids but you can still do a lot. I was the co-president of drinking club (I did go to school in Wisconsin!)

Get any internship or co-op you can get before leaving school. It will make getting a job a lot easier. Same as engineering groups like 93EXCivic said.

Engineering is an interesting beast. You will not get rich, and you may not get what you want. I have been with three different companies, four including my co-op. Each differs tremendously.

The last I had control of a lot of interesting things, and got my hands dirty on a regular basis. Unfortunately, the management was awful, the company is nosediving and layoffs were on the table at all times.

The current job I do so much paperwork it makes my head spin and I never see the products I design, but the rest of the job is better.

A good vendor I worked with allows you to go through the whole ordeal, concept, customer visits, design work and even cutting metal, assembly and support. The issue is that everyone who works for his six man outfit is a temp and gets paid hourly with no benefits.

Good companies (and good jobs) are out there for guys like you (and me) but they don't come around often, especially in these days of double digit unemployment.

Co-op school are an excellent way to get out into the real world to find out what part of the engineering world you want to live in. As a general rule, I won't do automotive anymore, for instance. Razor thin profit margins and terrible employment cycles have rules that out for me, even though the subject matter is fantastic.

Also make sure you try to get at least one internship while you are in school.

If you guys are defining rich as being millionaires that's probably true, but an engineer can make a very comfortable living.

I have been a mechanical engineer for 27 years. I used to work for a big Fortune 100 engineering firm, but for the last 14 years I've worked for a very small consulting firm. Engineering has a couple big drawbacks, besides the tough degree. One is that you will spend all your time and energy justifying your existence; clients NEVER think paying for engineering is necessary. It is a thankless job that you will never make big bucks working for someone else. The second drawback, is that you will be working for engineers. Engineers are some of the WORST bosses and generally poor businessmen, micro-managing you down to every nut and bolt while losing money hand over fist (you get blamed).

Like you, I've been disassembling and repairing everything since diaper days. I got an aeronautical engineering degree (back in the astronaut days), but since I love the hardware I should have gone an extra couple years and got the technology degree as well - then I could wrench on turbine engines (eh...I'd rather wrench on race cars). If you love cars, stay out of the auto industry and far away from Michigan. Get a degree from a college with a good Formula SAE program and then look for jobs with racing teams. Speaking German opens up opportunities like Porsche and BMW, both here and in Europe. While you may have to take lesser jobs to build a resume, don't settle for anything less than what you love to do - keep progressing towards your goal, and start your own business as early as possible. It means much more to enjoy what you do every day than to make a few bucks more and dread it.

I'd caution you that at 24, several years out of high school, you're not going to have a "good time" if you go down the engineering road. You're taking on a degree that gets you almost as much prestige in 4 years as other high end professionals take 6-8 years to get. It'll be doable, but very much a full time pursuit. Most of your classmates are coming straight out of HS with all their calc/physics/chem skills still sharp and even then some of those people will decide it's too hard.

Engineering at its best is boring. I had a professor who really nailed it when he said it's about figuring out the best way to do something, then repeating it over and over and over again with just enough tweaking to make it work in a new situation. Most engineers spend most of their time at a desk just like any other knowledge worker, running a CAD workstation or sifting through catalogs looking for the right widget or sitting in meetings or whatever. The length of time between concept and production can be measured in years. If what you like is highly detailed planning followed by a little bit of building, engineering is going to be great for you.

Most engineers rarely get to just build stuff and see how it holds up. They like to know if it's going to break in advance. If your passion is more in coming up with ad hoc solutions, throwing something together and waiting to see how it fails, you probably want something a bit more greasy. Machinist, some sort of tech, welder, etc. There are lots of roles for engineers in some of the funky fabrication shops and smaller startups, but those jobs are a tiny fraction of the industry.

I don't have a solution. An engineering degree is handy as hell and opens doors, even outside the field, because it's proof that you are capable of learning complex stuff. Ideally you'd have something like a mechanical engineering degree, then learn some useful mechanical skills and wind up doing more one-off fabrication type stuff than working on bigger productions. But it might be better to skip the engineering component and become a mechanic or machinist or welder and use your social skills to land a fun job doing fabrication on race cars or whatever. Four years spent in school leaves you with a degree and some connections, but not much else. Spend those same years busting your ass begging your way into cool shops and learning practical skills might get you closer to your goal, though.

Geez, some of you guys should have never become engineers, or at least you're working for the wrong companies. Maybe I've just been lucky - I have a great boss (he's an engineer who doesn't like managing so he just leaves me alone, plus he owns a TR4 and a big Healey so we can talk about car stuff), I find my work interesting, my clients are appreciative of my work and I make a pretty good living at it.

I'm going to disagree with alot of what's been posted regarding engineering being 'unfun' and 'hard' and 'boring' and 'paperwork'.

I am 29, I have a BS and MS in Aerospace Engineering from Georgia Tech, I Co-oped with Pratt & Whitney on engine control software verification and validation (boring), performance analysis (fun because it crossed everything from thermo to engine controls to actual flight and maintenance data), and engine control software design (interesting). As a masters student I worked in GT's Combustion Lab on the high speed wind tunnel designing a high speed Schlieren imaging system along with a high speed injector system for mixing studies and a plasma boundary layer control proof of concept test, I was one of the few post grads who could actually build things, not just figure out the equations and numeric models. After school I 'fell into' software engineering. I was very selective on my job and didn't take the first offer to come along. I'm glad I did. Instead of sitting filling out paperwork, following a 'process' and being bored to death I get to do really cool and fun 'R&D' style work where every day counts and I'm creating things and testing and using them immediately. Our customers get to see the work we all do every few months and real expertise, training, and value comes from our products.

If you want hands on I would suggest looking at small/medium engineering firms which allow you to do both design and fabrication. I have some friends who work for smaller aero companies that sub for larger companies and they get to do the CAD and then go do the CF layups , engine builds, etc. then spend weeks on site testing the demonstrators. Not all engineers are created equal, and not all engineering opportunities are created equal. If you want to do the 'fun stuff' in engineering, it usually means less predictability with contracts as you'll trend toward R&D and proof of concept vs production products which means you might have a job today and it won't be there tomorrow. The upside is you get unique experience doing some of the most cutting-edge and 'fun' engineering there is. If you go work for a big company in a big department on a production model, goodluck finding it 'fun'.

If you think engineering is boring, you chose the wrong profession or wrong school. For the most part, I enjoyed my classes (at least the Mechanical engineering ones) and I enjoy my job. Also it won't be easy going back to school at 24 but more of my classmates at UAH were non-traditional students then the ones straight out of high school so it can be done and many people have done it.

My experience as a non-degreed designer (what they call an engineer without a degree in NJ) is somewhere between RossD and Flightservice.

I design electrical systems; from medium voltage sub-stations down to the end-user receptacles. Started out doing supermarkets and other retail spaces and have been doing pharma facility projects for the past 10 years.

If I had spent 5 years in college to do what I do now... I'd be really pissed. Which may explain why so many of the engineers I work with are grumpy bastards...

Basically - there are many facets to the engineering field. What RossD and I do is technically "Architectural Engineering" (some schools even over a specific degree for this). If you want to sit at a computer most of the day (with occassional site surveys), surfing the web and once in while working, become an AE.

Manufacturing Engineering or lab tech is the way to go. These guys work with hardware all the time and generally don't need the same book knowledge. Practical knowledge is more important.

I have a Mech Eng degree and have been in the indusrtry for 15 years. 99% of my day is in front of a computer doing what is essentialy paperwork. Right now as a project engineer I manage various engineering projects. Mix of technical work and basic management. However no direct reports means no HR type stuff, but I do need to get core engineering guys to do detailed analysis etc.

I like what I do because I do work with technical products, but only rarely do I get to visit the shop floor. I do look at engineering drawings quite a bit.

Manufacturing Engineers here live on the shop floor and plan our how parts get made. Lab techs work in the lab and are always working with hardware or lab equipment all day long.

i struggled for the first six years of my Bachelor's degree, until two things happened: 1. I discovered Formula SAE. 2. my father died four days before i began my last year of undergrad.

FSAE ties together every engineering theory class you've had, from thermodynamics / fluid mechanics / transfer processes (powertrain, especially if turbocharging), to statics / mechanics / dynamics / vibrations (if working on chassis and suspension), to composites and aerodynamics (if working on bodywork).

my dad's death showed me that I don't have all the time in the world to keep berkeleying around and half-assing the effort i put into the important things in my life.

i will also defend the automotive industry as a great place to cultivate your career, if you get into the right position for you. being a "design and release engineer" doesn't float my boat, because it is mostly a paper job. "test engineer" is cool because you get to try to break stuff and investigate why it breaks, so you get some input to the iterative design process, but you're not tied to a CAD tube. for me, "Vehicle Development Engineer" is where it's at, because I take a fully instrumented vehicle out on a test track, flog it through a bunch of maneuvers, collect and analyze the data, then make tweaks to the hardware or controls to match the performance to the requirements.

definitely do not lose your passion for building stuff, and develop those skills as well. there are a lot of engineers here in detroit who work in teh auto industry because it is local to them, or because it is what they grew up in, but they're not passionate about it. the passion for teh cool stuff is what helps you get through the not-cool times. and the engineers who can build stuff get to work on some cool stuff.

also, your ability to communicate what you do and how you do it can open doors to cool opportunities.

having said all that, you might also find that a tech school is a better fit for you. maybe get on-the-job experience in a high-end chopper or hotrod shop, then open your own place a few years down the road.

whichever path you take, make sure it is one that stirs your passion.

good luck!

Well, since everyone is chiming in

I am NOT an engineer. I took the first year of five for a co-op program at THE Canadian university for engineering (University of Alberta). After getting miserable marks, spending all my time studying/doing work, I withdrew after the first year. It was not easy, even after coming fresh out of high school with close to a 90% average. My then girlfriend at the time was also in the same program. She was MUCH smarter than me, so she simply slogged her way through and did well.

I then went and did an engineering diploma in instrumentation (what we call a technologist here, the apprenticed versions of a technologist we refer to as technicians). Unfortunately, it was ridiculous easy, 4.0GPA over the two years. While not extremely challenging, it was interesting, and allowed me to go racing over those two years as well

Up here in Canuckland, engineers are treated with a lot more respect it seems. You start out anywhere from $45k-$75k per year and work your way up. If you are not close to $100k per year after 5-10 years of work, you are doing it wrong! I currently work in R&D for industry throughout Alberta (oil&gas, pulp and paper). The engineers where I work are underpaid since we are a for profit arm of the guberment, but the benefits are decent and it is impossible to get fired/laid off. I don't know many engineers that were laid off even during the recession, most are hired as permanent employees instead of contract with things like full benefits, pension, etc.

A big thing for myself is time; I have other things in life to do besides spend 5 years working on an education and racking up debt. Even here in the land of socialism, engineering is now $10k per year not including books. Factor in another $10k per school year in living expenses, and that is almost $100k over 5 years. The best you are going to earn at summer job here is around $20/h, so $10k net over 4 months. Minimum, you'll come out of school with $40k in debt unless you have help (living with your parents is a huge bonus which I was not afforded). You will be very close to 30 by the time you graduate... and being in school is like putting your life on hold. Everything seems to pass you by as you learn.

So is engineering a good field to be in? Absolutely. But the school is a bitch and it sometimes ain't much fine. Luck/opportunity as much as anything else will dictate where you go in the field, so you may or may not end up with an awesome job and pay. I can say at $50k per year I am currently at, even servicing $20k in debt SUCKS.

A bit about myself and skills: I like mechanical objects. I like working on them, and understanding how they work. My specific interests always lead me to working on cars (surprise!) where most of my mechanical and electrical knowledge can be put to work. I also like computers and programming, which also applies to cars. So, similiar interests and skillsets to you. This does not always mean that an engineering route will be right for you!

As far as pay goes, I went in about $25k of debt, I had about that much in help and I had about that much in grants and my co-op salary for my two degrees. I earned 50k out of school and now, 6 years and two jobs later, I earn 65k.

I'm in the "Engineering can be great" camp. I graduated 7 or so years ago. The company I'm at is largely (successfully) managed by P Eng's, and I like that management is logically driven. Design engineering is often a relatively "fixed" income area, but many companies here see design and project engineering as a breeding ground for upper management, with salaries that recognize that. School was hard: I almost dropped out after 1st year to go to a Technician program, but it retrospect am glad that I didn't. At least where I'm at, the degree offers more future opportunity, even if it doesn't necessarily reflect a skillset. The first year is brutal for everyone - we had 70% dropout rates, but it got better with time, and eventually you see the method (why) to the madness (theoretical maths). Where I am, I get to: design, build and test prototypes, and regularly (1/year) test prototypes on military vehicles. If I don't get enough wrench time at work (over time my work has trended towards "managing" projects), I can do it a home on various projects. The money is sufficient: Stace and I long ago decided to maintain a lifestyle on one income, so that she would have the option to stay home and raise the little one(s). The income is enough that we can live in a decent neighborhood with great neighbors, drive reasonably reliable cars while keeping a project car and being able to support others in greater need. What more could I really want?

Reading all of this, and based on what I've seen...

It all depends on what you end up doing.

being an automotive engineer can be both boring and exciting, just a few offices apart from each other- could be CAD'ing my 100th connecting rod or testing out a new suspension set up (both can be interesting or boring, btw). Being a technologist can be as boring as sitting in front of a dyno console all day, or working on cars.

It all depends.

I like my job.

YMMV.