Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Tom_Spangler wrote:
In reply to Adrian_Thompson:
You and I have been around and around on this in the past. Maybe the Benetton was illegal, it's very possible. But the thing is, he want on to win 6 more championships and more races than anyone, ever. Poor sportsman or not, you can't deny that record.
I know I know. But it should have been 4 or 5 total, not 7. He is/was a great driving talent, so was Senna, but I don't/didn't like either of them.
Senna is experiencing a massive resurgence of popularity thanks to the Senna documentary (we saw it together), I respect him (and the Chin) but it doen'st change the fact I don't like them
Bah, nothing but Brit bias. You hated Senna because he beat Mansell. You hated Schuey because he beat Hill. Simple as that. 
I'm not saying that Schumi hasn't done well in the past, other than some notable dick moves. But I do think that his performance over the last year show that it's a good time to retire. That's all.
z31maniac wrote:
Javelin wrote:
Feedyurhed wrote:
Wish he could have gotten at least one podium before he left. Should have stayed gone.
Uh, he got third at the European GP, that's a podium...
Only because about 7 drivers in front of him made poor strategy decisions. I realize that is part of the game, strategy, but lets not act like it was on pure pace or something.
The guy also had what, 3 or 4 podium qualifying starts and a couple of 4ths, has led some laps, and generally did better than 75% of the field in what is realistically a back-marker car (boy is Hammy going to have fun next yer the idiot). Again, you put him in the Ferrari, RB, Lotus, or McLaren and see what happens.
Yeah, he's not in his prime anymore, that doesn't mean he should just have to up and quit. Especially when he's still got more talent than most of the field.
Javelin wrote:
z31maniac wrote:
Javelin wrote:
Feedyurhed wrote:
Wish he could have gotten at least one podium before he left. Should have stayed gone.
Uh, he got third at the European GP, that's a podium...
Only because about 7 drivers in front of him made poor strategy decisions. I realize that is part of the game, strategy, but lets not act like it was on pure pace or something.
The guy also had what, 3 or 4 podium qualifying starts and a couple of 4ths, has led some laps, and generally did better than 75% of the field in what is realistically a back-marker car (boy is Hammy going to have fun next yer the idiot). Again, you put him in the Ferrari, RB, Lotus, or McLaren and see what happens.
Yeah, he's not in his prime anymore, that doesn't mean he should just have to up and quit. Especially when he's still got more talent than most of the field.
You're too easy.
Make it harder for us to bait you into responding. 
Javelin wrote:
The guy also had what, 3 or 4 podium qualifying starts and a couple of 4ths, has led some laps, and generally did better than 75% of the field in what is realistically a back-marker car (boy is Hammy going to have fun next yer the idiot). Again, you put him in the Ferrari, RB, Lotus, or McLaren and see what happens.
Yeah, he's not in his prime anymore, that doesn't mean he should just have to up and quit. Especially when he's still got more talent than most of the field.
How do you know the car's a back marker? Niko managed to win with it and I don't think many people count him as a top driver. While I don't like the Chin I freely admit he used to be fast. I think the Merc/Brawn is probably a faster car than it's looked this year. I'm willing ot bet if Hammy had gone there this year he would have a couple of wins in that chassis himself.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson:
Nico won when everybody still had no idea what the tires were doing (same with Pastor, etc). The last what, 6-7? races have shown where the cars really lie. Ferrari and RB are on top with Lotus very close, the Force India's qualify well but fall off pace, and both Merc's are quick but flawed. I'd put the FI and the Sauber both as better cars than the Mercedes, maybe even the McLaren.
I'm curious to see what happens next year.
While obviously it hasn't been brilliant from the start, betting against Ross Brawn making headway between seasons isn't something I'd do.
Not that the others won't be progressing as well, of course. And I'm curious to see Adrian Newey's design after a less-dominant season...
Of course, I'm several steps behind... Pardon me if things aren't where I left them in terms of the current state of play...
Tom_Spangler wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Tom_Spangler wrote:
In reply to Adrian_Thompson:
You and I have been around and around on this in the past. Maybe the Benetton was illegal, it's very possible. But the thing is, he want on to win 6 more championships and more races than anyone, ever. Poor sportsman or not, you can't deny that record.
I know I know. But it should have been 4 or 5 total, not 7. He is/was a great driving talent, so was Senna, but I don't/didn't like either of them.
Senna is experiencing a massive resurgence of popularity thanks to the Senna documentary (we saw it together), I respect him (and the Chin) but it doen'st change the fact I don't like them
Bah, nothing but Brit bias. You hated Senna because he beat Mansell. You hated Schuey because he beat Hill. Simple as that.
Brit Bias, no never lil old me!!!
Having said that, my top overall driver of the modern era? Prost, a Frenchie, a Frog, come off it, if a Brit can pick a Froggy over another Brit he is obviously not totaly blinded by patriotism. The flat out best driver of the area was Senna, although I personaly don't like him.
Schui is without doubt a top 5 driver of the last 30 years, but I don't like him and he has at least 2 WDC's to his credit than he deserves.
94 he and the team cheated their way to the winners circle and should pass the silver wear to Hill and Williams and update the history books.
Ran rant rave rave
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
Brit Bias, no never lil old me!!!
Having said that, my top overall driver of the modern era? Prost, a Frenchie, a Frog, come off it, if a Brit can pick a Froggy over another Brit he is obviously not totaly blinded by patriotism. The flat out best driver of the area was Senna, although I personaly don't like him.
You have no choice but to pick a non-Brit as best of the modern era, since the last Brit to win more than one championship was Jackie Stewart, and the last Englishman to do it was Graham Hill. With so many guys winning multiple titles in this era, picking any Brit over them would be too ridiculous even for you! 
World Drivers Championships by Nation
G.B. 14 championships
Krauts, 9 championships
Brazil, 8
Argentina 5 - all the same guy
Tony Schumacher is retiring?
That's a shame, he seemed to be at the top of his game.
http://www.shoeracing.com/drivers/tony-schumacher
Oh, you meant that stiff guy in the slow cars that look like ugly insects.....he's still racing huh?
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
World Drivers Championships by Nation
G.B. 14 championships
Krauts, 9 championships
Brazil, 8
Argentina 5 - all the same guy
Don't deflect. We weren't talking about total championships by nation, we were talking about which individual could be considered the greatest of the "modern era", generally defined as post-1980 or so. To me, that's between 4 guys, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, and either Hakkinen or Alonso. You can throw Nelson Piquet in there, too, if you want, but none of them are British.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:
Tom_Spangler wrote:
You have no choice but to pick a non-Brit as best of the modern era, since the last Brit to win more than one championship was Jackie Stewart
Hamhead is a brit.
And he only has one title.
In reply to Tom_Spangler:
If Kimi pulls out the surprise title this year (which is what I'm rooting for), I'd throw him in the ring. Prost, Senna, Schumi, and Alonso as best of the modern era sounds good though.
Tom_Spangler wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
World Drivers Championships by Nation
G.B. 14 championships
Krauts, 9 championships
Brazil, 8
Argentina 5 - all the same guy
Don't deflect. We weren't talking about total championships by nation, we were talking about which individual could be considered the greatest of the "modern era", generally defined as post-1980 or so. To me, that's between 4 guys, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, and either Hakkinen or Alonso. You can throw Nelson Piquet in there, too, if you want, but none of them are British.
How many of those championship cars where built in Britain?
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:
Tom_Spangler wrote:
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:
Tom_Spangler wrote:
You have no choice but to pick a non-Brit as best of the modern era, since the last Brit to win more than one championship was Jackie Stewart
Hamhead is a brit.
And he only has one title.
He isn't done yet.
True, but as of now is he in the conversation for "greatest driver of the modern era"? I think not.
Tom_Spangler wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote:
World Drivers Championships by Nation
G.B. 14 championships
Krauts, 9 championships
Brazil, 8
Argentina 5 - all the same guy
Don't deflect. We weren't talking about total championships by nation, we were talking about which individual could be considered the greatest of the "modern era", generally defined as post-1980 or so. To me, that's between 4 guys, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, and either Hakkinen or Alonso. You can throw Nelson Piquet in there, too, if you want, but none of them are British.
Il Leone AKA Our Nige' AKA Nigel Mansell, is without a doubt one of the greatest drivers to have 'only' won a single championship and held in high regard by his peers for his determination. He may not be top 3 material, but he has to be top 10, possibly top 5 material. Look at the all time win list and he's up there:
The cheating Kraut 91
The Professor Prost 51
Senna 41
Mansell 31
The greatest driver of the modern era is measured. It is easy to state. It is, hands down, Michael Schumacher. 7 titles (5 consecutive), 91 wins, 166 podiums, 68 pole positions, 22 hat tricks (pole, win, fastest lap). He had 248 starts before he retired the first time and 166 of them he was on the podium. That is 67% of total starts spanning an entire decade... batting a career 670 if you like a baseball analogy (except... if making the points is a hit, then he was closer to 995).
He was a colossal shiny happy person but he had the berkeleying mojo for a decade. He murdered that shyte.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:
The greatest driver of the modern era is measured. It is easy to state. It is, hands down, Michael Schumacher. 7 titles (5 consecutive), 91 wins, 166 podiums, 68 pole positions, 22 hat tricks (pole, win, fastest lap). He had 248 starts before he retired the first time and 166 of them he was on the podium. That is 67% of total starts spanning an entire decade... batting a career 670 if you like a baseball analogy.
He was a colossal shiny happy person but he had the berkeleying mojo for a decade. He murdered that shyte.
HE got some of those titles by cheating, and many more by having the FIA behind this team, don't forget FIA used to stand for Ferrari International Assistance. One of the greats, but I'll put at least Prost, Senna and Alonso (another guy I hate) ahead of him in terms of all time greats.
He cheated? Proof?
What did he hack into the ECU and code up some traction control while no one was looking?
Give it a rest.
Besides, he's a nice guy off the track:
cool story bro
Jeff
SuperDork
10/5/12 10:45 p.m.
News flash folks, it's actually OK to not like people. I know for most people under 30 that's a hard concept to accept.
Go Adrian, go!
Jeff wrote:
News flash folks, it's actually OK to not like people. I know for most people under 30 that's a hard concept to accept.
Go Adrian, go!
I think Dale Earnhardt's death was untimely, by about 50 years too late.
Kendall_Jones wrote:
He cheated? Proof?
What did he hack into the ECU and code up some traction control while no one was looking?
1994 was a bizarre season. Lots of info here.
IIRC, what happened on the traction control front is that Schumacher made some really good starts early in the season and there were accusations that he had to be using traction/launch control. The FIA looked at the source code to Benetton's ECU and found code for implementation of such. Benetton said that those routines were left over from the previous year (when it was legal), were no longer enabled, but simply hadn't been deleted. The FIA didn't impose a penalty because they couldn't find any proof that it was actually enabled. Some people don't buy it, and argue that if the code was in there it must have been being used.
Personally, I think the "disabled but not deleted" argument is plausible -- I write embedded systems software professionally and I see that sort of thing all the time. Given that the FIA wasn't shy about imposing penalties on Schumacher that year, I don't think they'd have let it go if they'd had any evidence to support the allegations.
