Searching for economical track/autocross car . . .

This is my first post on the forums. Let me say quickly that I enjoy GRM as a resource for practical information.

On that note, I have been driving a 2008 Viper convertible as both a driving school/HPDE car and at some autocross events. Unfortunately, during a recent HPDE/instructed driving school, I had an off track excursion resulting in significant damage to the car.

Fortunately, I had purchased track insurance for the event and hopefully that process will be resolved soon. My body shop returned the news that the car may be a total which leads to my next decision:

I have loved the Viper as a track/autocross car but I have come to realize that I use the car far less for just casual cruising on public roads than I use it as a learning tool at driving schools and autocrosses. While I have enjoyed having a shiny, late-model car, I have also come to realize that I take more enjoyment out of learning car control and improving myself as a driver. Stupidly, I have also found the "newness" of the Viper a distraction at track and autocross events (worried about hitting cones or sustaining damage at the track from debris etc). Thus, the appearance and bling factor of car ownership has diminished significantly for me.

I always see cars in the paddock that look older, are completely stripped out and look far more budget conscious while still delivering great performance. So assuming that I don't decide to purchase another Viper ( I would probably get something even more track focused like a 2008+ ACR), I would love some feedback on some reasonably priced performance cars to use almost exclusively for track/autocross and just the occasional drive on publc roads. Here are my criteria:

1. Rear wheel drive;

2. Budget in the $5,000-$25,000 range;

3. Decent but by by no means overwhelming power required;

4. Age and appearance are not really an issue;

5. I like open air driving a lot especially on a hot day when wearing a suit and Nomex underwear (my Viper was/is a convertible with an SCCA-compliant rollcage). So convertible with rollbar would be great but not mandatory; and

6. I drive and do not want to trailer my car to the track.

Just off the cuff, some ideas I had were:

First generation MX-5 Miata, used C5 Corvette (ZO6 posssible but not required), used Factory Five (Cobra replica) spec racer, RX-7, used/older Lotus 7/Caterham replica. Do folks have any other ideas for good track/autocross cars that fit the criteria above?

Thanks for any advice you can provide and sorry for the length of the post.

/Rich

The default answer around these parts is always Miata :)

Never underestimate a Miata on track. Cheap as dirt, plentiful, fun to drive. I think 10% of the NA Miatas ever sold must be Spec Miatae by now.

In reply to JThw8:

I figured the Miata would be on the "usual list of suspects" which is fine as the are great cars. On our very tight SCCA autocross course in Portland, I regularly had my ass handed to me by the Miata and MINI Cooper folks.

In reply to rcl4668:

Adding to the list:

E30 3 series BMW; is that what they run in the PRO3 class? Any other older BMWs that folks can recommend?

If you are going to go the BMW route, either an E30 or an E36 would probably be your best bet. I'm also going to throw out a second gen MR2 or even a 4th gen Z28 or Camaro SS.

In reply to dxman92:

Great suggestions; I assume when you include the E36 you are including the E36 M3? I see folks driving them all the time at the track and folks report nothing but good things. I am guessing that the E36 M3s probably fall well within the $10-$20,000 price range, even for a cosmetically nice example.

e36 M3's (I've owned two) are fantastic, even stock. Add some basic parts (e.g. suspension) and they're fantastic. The motor is so sweet and the car is amazingly balanced.

Having said that, I'm building a 2nd gen RX-7 with a built LS1 in it as a dedicated track car. The curb weight should be around 2500 lbs and the motor should dyno around 390 rwhp. That will be more than enough for my meager skills.

dyintorace wrote: e36 M3's (I've owned two) are fantastic, even stock. Add some basic parts (e.g. suspension) and they're fantastic. The motor is so sweet and the car is amazingly balanced. Having said that, I'm building a 2nd gen RX-7 with a built LS1 in it as a dedicated track car. The curb weight should be around 2500 lbs and the motor should dyno around 390 rwhp. That will be more than enough for my meager skills.

If I can be crass for a moment (and it won't be the last time trust me), may I ask how much it will cost you to build your RX-7 Franken-beast? Thanks.

/Rich

depends on your tastes..

how do you feel about FWD vs RWD vs AWD?

$25k can buy alot of car

it can buy a cheaper car with alot of upgrades as well (if you want something upgraded i would recommend finding one already built)

you said you like convertables.. and you said roll cage was in your viper.

look at the FFR spec racers (I would love one) and see if thats what you want, it will end up at the top of your price spectrum though.

S2k

BMW Z3-Z4?

C4 corvette and modify to your taste (if you ball it you can salvage parts to a new chassis)

if its your taste, look at a CMC or AI mustang/camaro

the locost thing is appealing to me (getting my tools in a row to build maybe), how comfortable are you with the safety in one?

cars are an inherent compromise, I would recommend searching out what appeals to you..

Not crass at all. I've asked the same question of other folks here on the board.

My goal is sub-$10k. I bought a non-running FC RX-7/LS1 project for $800. I've since sold that chassis and some parts from it and will eventually be down around a $400 buy in. I've since spent ~$2k rebuilding the motor with a cam upgrade and strengthened bottom end.

I then bought another FC RX-7 roller for $500, which included a roll bar already installed. I spent $1k on a used race coilover set up and $150 for a set of 15x10 rims.

I will end up spending a fair bit getting the motor installed and wired, driveshaft, rebuilt brakes, etc.

But overall, I should be under $10k for a true supercar destroyer. The weight to HP ratio will be spectacular.

EDIT: more info here: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/reader-rides/1160/

Wasn't Salanis thinking of selling his M Coupe?

If not an E36M3, I would say a Miata as well.

Blue Viper? Portland? I do believe I rode with you in the autocross a few times and handed out pointers. I had the 1st-Gen RX-7...

Sorry to here about the Viper. If you can take any time off this weekend, come to PIR for the SCCA Autocross and I can get you a ride in my 1st Gen RX-7 and Josh's LS1-swapped FC RX-7. I believe you will find Josh's car much to your liking!

Oh, and as far as LS1 FC performance goes. Josh's makes 310rwhp and I drag-raced it to 12.3's @114 in autocross trim. A taller drag slick and a better clutch and that car is mid-11's with ease. It's set several FTD's in local auto-x competition as well.

P71 wrote: Blue Viper? Portland? I do believe I rode with you in the autocross a few times and handed out pointers. I had the 1st-Gen RX-7... Sorry to here about the Viper. If you can take any time off this weekend, come to PIR for the SCCA Autocross and I can get you a ride in my 1st Gen RX-7 and Josh's LS1-swapped FC RX-7. I believe you will find Josh's car *much* to your liking!

Hey, I do remember you; good to hear from you. Regarding the Viper, at the end of the day it's a piece of metal and rubber and the bottom line is my instructor and I were unhurt. I will make a quick plug for a HANS device; I was wearing mine and while both airbags deployed I don't think the airbafg even touched my helmet. The 6-points and the HANS kept my entire body incredibly steady to the point where one day later I don;t even have any residual soreness or bruising, even on my shoulder where the belts lay. $600-$800 may seem like a lot for a HANS but I am completely sold. Please, if you do any high speed track events or race get a reputable head and neck restraint.

rcl4668 wrote:

P71 wrote: Blue Viper? Portland? I do believe I rode with you in the autocross a few times and handed out pointers. I had the 1st-Gen RX-7... Sorry to here about the Viper. If you can take any time off this weekend, come to PIR for the SCCA Autocross and I can get you a ride in my 1st Gen RX-7 and Josh's LS1-swapped FC RX-7. I believe you will find Josh's car *much* to your liking!

Hey, I do remember you; good to hear from you. Regarding the Viper, at the end of the day it's a piece of metal and rubber and the bottom line is my instructor and I were unhurt. I will make a quick plug for a HANS device; I was wearing mine and while both airbags deployed I don't think the airbafg even touched my helmet. The 6-points and the HANS kept my entire body incredibly steady to the point where one day later I don;t even have any residual soreness or bruising, even on my shoulder where the belts lay. $600-$800 may seem like a lot for a HANS but I am completely sold. Please, if you do any high speed track events or race get a reputable head and neck restraint.

I'm glad to hear you were unhurt (except in the wallet). I'm even more glad to have read your previous posts, you seem a lot different than the usual guys with cars like that who show up at an HPDE and expect that they'll be the next Michael Schumacher.

May I suggest you try again with a car "slow" enough to practice hanging a car on the edge without worrying about the kind of velocity a Viper can make? Other guys here have recommeded the Miata, and I'll have to back them up.

Otherwise, perhaps the Honda S2K? If you've got the kind of money you're talking about, you should be able to find a pretty good one.

JFX001 wrote: Wasn't Salanis thinking of selling his M Coupe? If not an E36M3, I would say a Miata as well.

Yes, I still am. I lost my title and am working on getting that replaced. I also need to find a good body shop to do some little touch-up jobs on the bumpers. If anyone is interested, let me know.

That said, as cool as the M Coupe is, it's not the best value for the track. You can get an E36 M3 for cheaper, and the M3 will be a better track car. The cool-factor and rarity raise the price. Still solidly in your price range, but it depends how much you care about Gee-whiz factor. I would be willing to deliver to Portland, though.

Miata is the obvious answer. Especially since, you can get one cheap and fix it up exactly to your desires. Or find someone selling one that's enough like what you want.

I second the S2000. Great car.

JFX001 wrote: Wasn't Salanis thinking of selling his M Coupe?

Yeah. IIRC, to go Spec Miata. Some of us were trying to talk him into buying one instead of building.

JFX001 wrote: If not an E36M3, I would say a Miata as well.

I hadn't thought about the M Coupe, since they're so rare. I'm still bending towards Honda S2000 if rcl4668 wants something with a little more power than a Miata.

friedgreencorrado wrote:

rcl4668 wrote:

P71 wrote: Blue Viper? Portland? I do believe I rode with you in the autocross a few times and handed out pointers. I had the 1st-Gen RX-7... Sorry to here about the Viper. If you can take any time off this weekend, come to PIR for the SCCA Autocross and I can get you a ride in my 1st Gen RX-7 and Josh's LS1-swapped FC RX-7. I believe you will find Josh's car *much* to your liking!

Hey, I do remember you; good to hear from you. Regarding the Viper, at the end of the day it's a piece of metal and rubber and the bottom line is my instructor and I were unhurt. I will make a quick plug for a HANS device; I was wearing mine and while both airbags deployed I don't think the airbafg even touched my helmet. The 6-points and the HANS kept my entire body incredibly steady to the point where one day later I don;t even have any residual soreness or bruising, even on my shoulder where the belts lay. $600-$800 may seem like a lot for a HANS but I am completely sold. Please, if you do any high speed track events or race get a reputable head and neck restraint.

I'm glad to hear you were unhurt (except in the wallet). I'm even more glad to have read your previous posts, you seem a *lot* different than the usual guys with cars like that who show up at an HPDE and expect that they'll be the next Michael Schumacher. May I suggest you try again with a car "slow" enough to practice hanging a car on the edge without worrying about the kind of velocity a Viper can make? Other guys here have recommeded the Miata, and I'll have to back them up. Otherwise, perhaps the Honda S2K? If you've got the kind of money you're talking about, you should be able to find a pretty good one.

Thanks for the kind words; I consider myself at best an intermediate/advanced intermediate driver. I am looking for something that will be primarily a good, neutral-handling car that will be a good tool to improve my driving skills, car control and learn something about car setup. Having something that looks nice and has some grunt would be a bonus but is not essential.

Sounds like the Miata, E36 M3, and S2000 are high on people's lists. I have also been trolling the Factory Five forums and am pretty intrigued by the Factory Five Challenge car as both an autocross and HPDE car. Ideally, I would love to find a car that someone has already done the prep work on (rollbar/cage, seat harnesses etc) and is willing to sell.

Thanks for all the great feedback thus far.

/Rich

friedgreencorrado wrote: Yeah. IIRC, to go Spec Miata. Some of us were trying to talk him into buying one instead of building. I hadn't thought about the M Coupe, since they're so rare. I'm still bending towards Honda S2000 if rcl4668 wants something with a little more power than a Miata.

Actually, the original goal was (and still is) to get a boring economobile DD, and net a healthy chunk of change on top of that. I have just recently decided that a Spec Miata or Honda Challenge car would be a great way to spend that. I just need to decide if I'll sell or keep my current Miata.

I have decided to buy already built, rather than build. My money would actually go farther.

And yeah, M Coupes are cool... but rare makes them cost more than comparable cars. Of course, if you're used to driving around a Viper, the extra money might be worth it for the exotic factor.

rcl4668 wrote: I have also been trolling the Factory Five forums and am pretty intrigued by the Factory Five Challenge car as both an autocross and HPDE car. Ideally, I would love to find a car that someone has already done the prep work on (rollbar/cage, seat harnesses etc) and is willing to sell.

Ut oh, now you have opened the bag of worms. Ultimately, I think from everything you have said, that would be your best option. However, that will be outside your $25k limit. Having read up on them, look into the challenge car. Better safety and the most up-to-date chassis. Only problem is people don't sell them. So you would have to build one. Which may not be a problem for you.

I would put my vote down for S2000 or the Factory Five; leaning towards the latter.

Edit: Just realized you want to drive to the track. Maybe a FF 65 Coupe? That's even more $$ though.

Lotus Elise, BMW M3 (E36 chassis) / M Coupe, C5 Z-06, Mid-80s thru 93 Porsche 911, Boxster S, Lotus 7 clone... you name it... $25K will buy a lot of track cars these days. My examples above are all over the top half of that range and you have your choice of mid-engine, rear engine, front engine and big on medium power.

I would say SW20 MR2 Turbo, i think it's been mentioned before. I'm not sure if it's the neutral handling you're looking for, but gawdamn they'll book around a track with the right driver.

Relatively cheap compared to most of the other mentioned options, other than Miata. You can find a VERY VERY nice one for $8k or under.

If you want to spend more, or want another vert, i say S2000.

I'd suggest looking for a cosmetically rough/salvage title (but straight) e36 M3 too. Gut it, put a roll bar in it, fresh brakes/rubber/dampers, and have a blast.
A "clean" salvage title M3 can be found for ~$5kish these days, which leaves lots of room for wear items and freshening.

That said, if I didn't have this need for a back seat, a Z06 would be REALLY appealing, if more money to keep rubber on.

Nathan

Well I'm glad to hear you and the instructor are OK! Sounds like the HANS device is a worthy investment.

Seriously though, if you want to come hang out for a little bit at the track this weekend we can get you rides in all sorts of cars to better determine what you are looking for. Honestly after riding with you and reading your posts I would say a Miata might bore you without a turbo kit. I suggest looking into C4 Corvette's. You can nab a Targa for that open-air feel without having to resort to such an extreme cage, and the end-of-the-run LT1/LT4 cars make fantastic power, plus the same T56 your used too and high levels of grip.

Shoot me an e-mail and I'll give you my phone number. We're autocrossing all weekend but I'll only be on-track in the afternoon sessions.