Keith Tanner said:
HP+ is good for a lap and a half of our local track before fading into oblivion. We named the first turn at the track "the Ferber straight" after a new hire (and experienced autocrosser) went so far off he just about ended up on the interstate.
I'd never touch them after seeing that.
Are you sure this was a brake pad issue as opposed to a driver error or some other issue with the brake system? I run the HP+ on my autocross/trackday/timetrial Miata (stock 1.8L) and have never had an issue with fade even when running 25 minute sessions at a pace that’s just a couple of seconds off the pointy end of a Spec Miata field. Then I can drive home on the same pads. They may not work on a heavy car or a fast car but they’ve been solid on my light slow car. The HP+ seems to get a bad rap on the internet from a lot people who’ve never actually used them because they’re not a “REAL” track pad. Not everybody wants to swap pads upon arrival and again prior to departure at the track.
docwyte said:
You literally picked the worst pad for every single situation. Your experience with miata's is showing, this is not a tiny, underpowered, small tired car. HP+ make noise and copious brake dust on the street, yet on the track will melt inside of a few laps with an experienced driver, like you.
Do yourself a huge favor and just throw them in the trash. Run OEM textar pads for the street and a set of PFC08's or 11's on the track. The drilled rotors are ok, but not as good as a set of Stebro slotted rotors.
I've gotta say, the last few articles you've written on this car have really missed the mark and shown some things that are just flat out wrong, like "cleaning" the radiators.
Notice Tim hasn't posted the track testing article yet--the one where he'll actually write about how these pads work on the street and the track.
As the endurance racer on staff, I'll be perfectly honest that I don't believe there is such a thing as a dual-duty brake pad, and I've never driven on one that isn't a serious compromise. But I'm still open to the idea.
However, Tim's not racing this car; he's doing a few track day laps every once in a while for fun. And he's also not nearly as aggressive of a driver as he was 40 years ago (especially in his shiny Porsche).
It's our job to test things, as this would be a pretty boring outlet if all we ever did was make the most obvious choices every time for every project. This article was about installing pads; the next will be about driving on them. 
CrashDummy said:
Keith Tanner said:
HP+ is good for a lap and a half of our local track before fading into oblivion. We named the first turn at the track "the Ferber straight" after a new hire (and experienced autocrosser) went so far off he just about ended up on the interstate.
I'd never touch them after seeing that.
Are you sure this was a brake pad issue as opposed to a driver error or some other issue with the brake system? I run the HP+ on my autocross/trackday/timetrial Miata (stock 1.8L) and have never had an issue with fade even when running 25 minute sessions at a pace that’s just a couple of seconds off the pointy end of a Spec Miata field. Then I can drive home on the same pads. They may not work on a heavy car or a fast car but they’ve been solid on my light slow car. The HP+ seems to get a bad rap on the internet from a lot people who’ve never actually used them because they’re not a “REAL” track pad. Not everybody wants to swap pads upon arrival and again prior to departure at the track.
Yup, pretty sure. The car never had a brake fade problem again. I do think he ignored some warning signs because he was trying to show off some speed to his new coworkers. The person who was riding with him could smell the pads. Smelly pads points straight to overheating.
There are many other options out there, and too many questions about that pad to make it the choice. The R4S, for example, shows temps running up to 1300F on the friction vs temp chart. Hawk doesn't even show a curve past 800 for the HP+, which tells you a lot about intended use. Maybe a car with a lot more grip than power can make them work on the right track since there isn't all that much braking involved, but it's definitely not on the list of pads I'd recommend to anyone who is planning on going on track.
In my experience, the PFC97 is a do-anything pad, from running cold and wet in a hurricane to dealing with a V8 Miata on track. They just always get the job done. They'll take out two sets of rotors for every set of pads, though. Depending on your choice of rotors, that might actually be less expensive than if the use was the other way around :)
Tom Suddard said:
docwyte said:
You literally picked the worst pad for every single situation. Your experience with miata's is showing, this is not a tiny, underpowered, small tired car. HP+ make noise and copious brake dust on the street, yet on the track will melt inside of a few laps with an experienced driver, like you.
Do yourself a huge favor and just throw them in the trash. Run OEM textar pads for the street and a set of PFC08's or 11's on the track. The drilled rotors are ok, but not as good as a set of Stebro slotted rotors.
I've gotta say, the last few articles you've written on this car have really missed the mark and shown some things that are just flat out wrong, like "cleaning" the radiators.
Notice Tim hasn't posted the track testing article yet--the one where he'll actually write about how these pads work on the street and the track.
As the endurance racer on staff, I'll be perfectly honest that I don't believe there is such a thing as a dual-duty brake pad, and I've never driven on one that isn't a serious compromise. But I'm still open to the idea.
However, Tim's not racing this car; he's doing a few track day laps every once in a while for fun. And he's also not nearly as aggressive of a driver as he was 40 years ago (especially in his shiny Porsche).
It's our job to test things, as this would be a pretty boring outlet if all we ever did was make the most obvious choices every time for every project. This article was about installing pads; the next will be about driving on them.
Yeah, but there's "less obvious choices" and then there's "obviously wrong choices".
dps214 said:
Tom Suddard said:
docwyte said:
You literally picked the worst pad for every single situation. Your experience with miata's is showing, this is not a tiny, underpowered, small tired car. HP+ make noise and copious brake dust on the street, yet on the track will melt inside of a few laps with an experienced driver, like you.
Do yourself a huge favor and just throw them in the trash. Run OEM textar pads for the street and a set of PFC08's or 11's on the track. The drilled rotors are ok, but not as good as a set of Stebro slotted rotors.
I've gotta say, the last few articles you've written on this car have really missed the mark and shown some things that are just flat out wrong, like "cleaning" the radiators.
Notice Tim hasn't posted the track testing article yet--the one where he'll actually write about how these pads work on the street and the track.
As the endurance racer on staff, I'll be perfectly honest that I don't believe there is such a thing as a dual-duty brake pad, and I've never driven on one that isn't a serious compromise. But I'm still open to the idea.
However, Tim's not racing this car; he's doing a few track day laps every once in a while for fun. And he's also not nearly as aggressive of a driver as he was 40 years ago (especially in his shiny Porsche).
It's our job to test things, as this would be a pretty boring outlet if all we ever did was make the most obvious choices every time for every project. This article was about installing pads; the next will be about driving on them.
Yeah, but there's "less obvious choices" and then there's "obviously wrong choices".
Given GRM's relationship with Tire Rack and the fact that the friction graphs have Tire Rack logos on them, I suspect a lot of the pad options suggested here weren't really on the table. TR sells Hawk, Stoptech/Centric and Akebono. There are loads of options in the Hawk line though.
Tim, Tom, thank you for this series of articles! This is exactly why I love GRM, because they offer a variety of approaches that appeal to various members of our community (racers, hardcore HPDE, casual HPDE, etc). I am particularly interested in your approach with the 997, because I am in the same situation. I went from a dedicated track car (Evo 8 RS) to a street car (Audi TT RS) that I want to keep civil and relatively stock, but still have fun with on the track occasionally, without going back into the black hole of never-ending mods and chasing lap times... I have been very happy with Endless products (brake pads and fluid). I drove my track car to/from the tracks and their race compounds have performed well on the street, with good cold bite and little/no noise (for me, YMMV), and, since they have a very wide range (almost "Endless") of compounds, I was able to find the compound I needed as my speed increased (ME20 - ME22 - N35S - N05U - N05S). I am now using their street/track compound, CC-Rg, and have been very happy with it on the street and on the track (while driving accordingly, but still within a few seconds of the track car). They can be a little difficult to obtain (I order the pads directly from Japan) and relatively pricey (although Yen-USD is favorable at the moment), but worth it to me for their "near-unicorn" abilities.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
IIRC Tim was working with Pagid, too, but had some issues finding the right pad shape. Hooray for Tire Rack's catalog!
Lsxus
New Reader
1/5/23 12:59 p.m.
Dumb question here: Do brake coefficient of friction ratings matter on pads? I've seen some rockauto special's that are HH rated. So one can't help but think that they should be good for track use?
My carbotech xp10's didn't have any coefficient of friction ratings on them, but they're clearly a track pad or at least work on track!
Lsxus said:
Dumb question here: Do brake coefficient of friction ratings matter on pads? I've seen some rockauto special's that are HH rated. So one can't help but think that they should be good for track use?
My carbotech xp10's didn't have any coefficient of friction ratings on them, but they're clearly a track pad or at least work on track!
From a quick google it looks like the "high temp" part of that rating is only 600-650*F so it's not really enough information to tell how a pad will do on track.
In reply to Tom Suddard :
I mean, ok. If you're doing easy laps, fine. But then you get to deal with the car sounding like a garbage truck on the street. I've definitely btdt, there is no magic bullet for a brake pad that can handle a powerful, relatively heavy car with an experienced driver on track and still be quiet, have good brake torque and not ruin brake rotors/wheels on the street.
The closest are Ferodo DS2500 and Porterfield R4S. If you're constrained by what an advertiser is giving you for free, then perhaps a line about that is in order.
Someone mentioned EBC pads, I tried three different compounds (green, yellow, and orange) and none of them worked on track on my 2.7 Boxster. They all juddered like crazy once hot, and faded. Yes, I bedded them in correctly. I finally gave up and tried the PFCs and they have worked great on track. My old Boxster is slower and lighter than the 997 in question, so I think the EBCs would work even worse on the 911.
If Tim is taking it really easy while on track, then much of the advice here may not apply.
I am using DTC-30s. They have good bite cold and work great at the track. I am using them on the street (not daily though) but I may switch them to Wilwoods BP20 when I go out on the Power Tour.
I've had really good experiences with Stop Tech Sport pads (as a dual-purpose pad) in the past. I'm eager to test them on my 996.
