Settle an argument : Miata Power

Settle this argument: A buddy claims that 175-200hp should be easily doable with an MX-5. Header, cams, exhaust. They can do that with 1.6 Hondas was his benchmark.  Also claims that a naturally aspirated 200hp NA 1.6 would be totally streetable.

I say its not. Not without cubic dollar race blueprinting,  c16 required compression,  extreme low vacuum cams and non-emissions compliant exhaust.

There's a lot of potatoes in between these two. No power adders. What real world results have you Miata guys found?

A NC Miata could probably get there N/A I believe, not a 1.6 NA.

Crank or wheel?

There's a pretty proven formula for this type of build already. NB2 + racing beat headers + exhaust + flat top intake mani. That should put you a little over 150whp. You can chase a little more power with ITBs or E85, but the BP is close to tapped out at that point.

Skunk2 has recently released a bigger throttle body and their own intake manifold, but people are reporting pretty big jumps in NVH. 

edit: 2.5L swapped NCs with full bolt ons are over 200hp, but those are the exception to the "naturally aspirated" miata rule

What was a blueprinted spec miata making? 135?

Here's a dyno plot from the Targa Miata:

https://www.targamiata.com/images_lrg/short_vs_stock_intake_tract.pdf

FM stroker kit, final capacity 2020cc
11.5:1 compression
1999 head, ported and polished
1mm oversize stainless steel valves
custom 4-1 header
"fast road" cams
Flyin' Miata high performance valve springs
Hydra ECU

https://www.targamiata.com/miataspecs.php

So no, it likely isn't possible with a 1.6.

Also if your friend wants to bench race, ask him how much power that Honda makes under the curve?  I suspect not much compared to engines of similar size and I can tell you which would likely be faster on course.

We're obviously talking BP here.

The Targa Miata got a lot stronger later with the IRTBs and more tuning:  dyno chart. And a sister engine with  VVT had more bottom end and I remember it being 175-ish rwhp, I don't think I have a chart handy. I had indications that the dyno being used there would underreport cars under 200 rwhp, just given the way they'd perform around other cars with given power levels.

I also had a similar 1.6 that was making 148 rwhp and was very streetable - absolutely hilarious engine to drive.

I think the E Prod guys were/are way up there, but in reality anything over 160 from a 1.8 is mostly fiction. 

Honda is very good at making engines and you really cannot discount VTEC. It allows you to run two completely different cams in an engine, which is a different thing than simple VVT. Extrapolating FWD (lower drivetrain loss) Honda (add up the stickers*) power levels to other vehicles just doesn't work well.

*The Honda population of Grand Junction decided that Flyin' Miata didn't know how to run their dyno because we simply couldn't give them the dyno charts they KNEW they should be producing. Best was an Integra Type R that got stronger every time we disconnected a magic box, and which turned out to have been rebuilt with low compression pistons. But it was our fault for not making the numbers...

If a 200hp B6 or BP were easy, or even doable for under $5k, people wouldn't do K series swaps. 

I think Quinn Kizis has the highest HP N/A NA/NB with his white NB1. Its a 2001 block, 1999-2000 head that's been heavily milled and ported, tons of compression, big Maruha cams, Maruha header and ITBs and made 184whp at 8000+rpm. He drives it on the street but its pretty rude. And I know he said when he milled the head something like 0.100", no one could figure out how to time it and he had to do a bunch of math.

Keith might know flow #s for the heads, but I'm fairly confident in stock form, the B16 head flows significantly more than the best BP head, and quite a bit more than the worst.  And its designed to spin fast enough to take advantage of that... a quick googling shows them making peak power around 8000 +/- 200 rpm.

I should have asked which miata. I always think Na or NB, but I keep forgetting about the NC 2.5 swap. 

This is coming from a guy with a 1998 3.8 automatic Camaro, so I doubt he knows anything about the big block swap. He swears that a 1.6 inline 4 is a 1.6 inline 4, hence the Honda B series analogy.  

I tried to tell him it's not just displacement it engine architecture.

100hp/liter is still a pretty high bar, and it was almost unheard of when the B6/BP was first developed. 

So in short, uh, no. 

cmcgregor (Forum Supporter) said:

100hp/liter is still a pretty high bar, and it was almost unheard of when the B6/BP was first developed. 

So in short, uh, no. 

And yet, my 200hp 2.0L FR-S is underpowered.  

Appleseed said:

I should have asked which miata. I always think aNa or NB, but I keep forgetting about the NC 2 5 swap. 

This is coming from a guy with a 1998 3.8 automatic Camaro, so I doubt he knows anything about the big block swap. He swears that a 1.6 inline 4 is a 1.6 inline 4, hence the Honda B series analogy.  

I tried to tell him it's not just displacement it engine architecture.

Tell him a 3.8 V6 is a 3.8 V6 and ~325 at the wheels should be pretty simple with headers, cams and exhaust.

Appleseed said:

cmcgregor (Forum Supporter) said:

100hp/liter is still a pretty high bar, and it was almost unheard of when the B6/BP was first developed. 

So in short, uh, no. 

And yet, my 200hp 2.0L FR-S is underpowered.  

Well, it does come with an extra 500 lbs of baggage :) And it also comes from a company that sells cars that "everyone knows" can make 600 hp really easily.

Heck, if people didn't think Miatas were underpowered we'd have a different business model!

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Lol. "Everyone" I know knows what it costs to rebuild a Subaru motor that makes 300hp (and in many cases less).

I suggest nitrous. That'll get you to 200hp.

I'm far from a honda expert but a few minutes of google searching and I can't find anyone that's getting anywhere near 200hp in a 1.6 without high comp pistons and a totally aftermarket valvetrain. So even in "a 1.6 is a 1.6" land his claim isn't holding up very well.

I'll never forget standing in the dyno room at the machine shop, breaking in a freshly rebuilt 283.

I said to the dyno operator "Bet there's a lot of sad faces in here, huh?"

His reply "You'd be amazed how many '600hp' street engines make less than 300"

ProDarwin said:

Appleseed said:

I should have asked which miata. I always think aNa or NB, but I keep forgetting about the NC 2 5 swap. 

This is coming from a guy with a 1998 3.8 automatic Camaro, so I doubt he knows anything about the big block swap. He swears that a 1.6 inline 4 is a 1.6 inline 4, hence the Honda B series analogy.  

I tried to tell him it's not just displacement it engine architecture.

Tell him a 3.8 V6 is a 3.8 V6 and ~325 at the wheels should be pretty simple with headers, cams and exhaust.

No joke, he has claimed that. Serious as a heart attack.

dps214 said:

I'm far from a honda expert but a few minutes of google searching and I can't find anyone that's getting anywhere near 200hp in a 1.6 without high comp pistons and a totally aftermarket valvetrain. So even in "a 1.6 is a 1.6" land his claim isn't holding up very well.

Honda heads flow a LOT better than B6/BP heads do.

Miata motors making 200 rwhp naturally aspriated are usually very short-lifed race motors, measured in 10s of hours between rebuilds.

ProDarwin said:

Appleseed said:

I should have asked which miata. I always think aNa or NB, but I keep forgetting about the NC 2 5 swap. 

This is coming from a guy with a 1998 3.8 automatic Camaro, so I doubt he knows anything about the big block swap. He swears that a 1.6 inline 4 is a 1.6 inline 4, hence the Honda B series analogy.  

I tried to tell him it's not just displacement it engine architecture.

Tell him a 3.8 V6 is a 3.8 V6 and ~325 at the wheels should be pretty simple with headers, cams and exhaust.

That's what my 3.2 I6 did with I/H/E and a tune.  At 3.8L he should be doing 400! :)

Header, cams, exhaust. They can do that with 1.6 Hondas was his benchmark.  Also claims that a naturally aspirated 200hp NA 1.6 would be totally streetable.

The main thing about Hondas is being able to retain streetability with big cams. Any two engines of similar displacement, top end flow, and cam specs will make basically the same power. A lot of engines have good headflow but poor off-the-shelf manifold and cam availability. A lot of what separates Hondas in terms of reputation is that there have long been people willing to spend Lambo money on cheap Hondas trying to legitimately push them as far as they will go ($20k trans anyone?). There are also a lot of car communities that have 'herd immunity' to good ideas and just refuse to try things that literally can't not work just because noone else (with the same car) has done it first. 

Appleseed said:

I should have asked which miata. I always think Na or NB, but I keep forgetting about the NC 2.5 swap. 

This is coming from a guy with a 1998 3.8 automatic Camaro, so I doubt he knows anything about the big block swap. He swears that a 1.6 inline 4 is a 1.6 inline 4, hence the Honda B series analogy.  

I tried to tell him it's not just displacement it engine architecture.

Well, if you could put a B18C5 cylinder head on a 1.6 Miata block, maybe. :) Not sure why anyone would build such a thing except a massive loophole in a rulebook somewhere or extreme dedication to owning the world's most powerful all motor B6 Miata.

I made 148 whp on Pure Tuning's Mustang Dyno. With a standard drivetrain loss that puts me right in the OP's claimed numbers assuming he's talking about crank horsepower. 

Engine was an unopened 1.8L BP6D with ~33K miles. MS3 ECU, Racing Beat Header + Exhaust (no cat), Skunk2 Intake Manifold, DIY Intake, FF640 CC injectors, and full E85. Quite a simple parts list to reproduce and with enough bargin shopping you could likely get that for under $2,500 total.