Settle an argument : Miata Power

If you'd only put a Jaguar V12 in there, all your problems would be solved.

In reply to ShawnG :

Yeah, my buddy would be too knée deep in project hell to argue will me any more. 

NickD said:

I think Quinn Kizis has the highest HP N/A NA/NB with his white NB1. Its a 2001 block, 1999-2000 head that's been heavily milled and ported, tons of compression, big Maruha cams, Maruha header and ITBs and made 184whp at 8000+rpm. He drives it on the street but its pretty rude. And I know he said when he milled the head something like 0.100", no one could figure out how to time it and he had to do a bunch of math.

Did the videos you posted below mention anything about timing it? I remember some of his videos and he mentioned he did shave off a lot of the head which did make me wonder how close his valves are close to hitting the pistons. I was wondering how he timed it and how many degrees retarded his timing is at. 

dps214 said:

I'm far from a honda expert but a few minutes of google searching and I can't find anyone that's getting anywhere near 200hp in a 1.6 without high comp pistons and a totally aftermarket valvetrain. So even in "a 1.6 is a 1.6" land his claim isn't holding up very well.

A b16b might have a better shot of hitting that number, its basically a destroked b18 with the same valvetrain and cams as the integra type r which has the  better OEM valvetrain to go up to 8,500+ rpm. 

Add me to the list... 150whp out of a junkyard VVT motor, MS3, RB header, 2.5" exhaust, EUDM flat-top intake manifold and DIY 3dprinted CAI. Stock injectors, 93 pump gas. That's the point of diminishing returns on a BP engine for sure. 

Appleseed said:

Settle this argument: A buddy claims that 175-200hp should be easily doable with an MX-5. Header, cams, exhaust. They can do that with 1.6 Hondas was his benchmark.  Also claims that a naturally aspirated 200hp NA 1.6 would be totally streetable.

I say its not. Not without cubic dollar race blueprinting,  c16 required compression,  extreme low vacuum cams and non-emissions compliant exhaust.

There's a lot of potatoes in between these two. No power adders. What real world results have you Miata guys found?

Compression balances the camshaft, it is not something to add by itself.  You can run 13:1 easily on pump gas if you have large enough cams.  Because you will need that much compression for it to run very well!  Likewise with small stock cams 9.5:1 is about right.

The question I have about the 1.6s is did the 1.6l NBs have the same port architecture as the late BP engines, or did Mazda basically just keep cranking out the '93 B6 for another decade, for the home market?

If they did, then there is no point considering any 1.6.  Nothing BP would really compare to anything B6 because there is a lot of can't get there from here thanks to the expanded bore spacing.  The B6 has fairly cramped little bores, which ultimately would limit power.  Which is why Mazda went to the expense of changing the bore center for the BP, so they could fit larger bores and everything else.

On the opposite extreme is the Nissan SR16VE, which had the same bore as the SR20 (and same head/valves as SR20VE, if I recall right) but 80% of the stroke, so it had all of the same breathing capability but less displacement to feed.  Which is how Nissan was making 195hp 1.6ls from the factory.

The B6 is a bored out 1.3 already.

I think the Euro engines got some upgrades like solid lifters, but not a head redesign. I would love to see someone figure out a way to jam a Honda head on one, that would be hilarious.

Keith Tanner said:

The B6 is a bored out 1.3 already.

I think the Euro engines got some upgrades like solid lifters, but not a head redesign. I would love to see someone figure out a way to jam a Honda head on one, that would be hilarious.

Not a Honda head, but I know guys chop up aftermarket Honda intakes to work with BP heads. Or did. I imagine the aftermarket finally mass-producing an upgraded bolt-on intake probably cut down on the number of people doing that

So from the examples, I'd say the thing to do is: 

1. Throw away your 1.6L

2. Make the power that your buddy claims with a BP6D with the tried and true 150whp recipe

One of the things I sort of enjoy about Richard Holdener's videos ever since he started his Youtube channel is that in basically every video he drops some line about "what happens when you do XYZ?" followed by "the same thing that always happens on every single engine when you do that thing!". 

Keith Tanner said:

The B6 is a bored out 1.3 already.

I think the Euro engines got some upgrades like solid lifters, but not a head redesign. I would love to see someone figure out a way to jam a Honda head on one, that would be hilarious.

What is the bore spacing?

I know people have stuck motorcycle heads on some automotive fours, when the bore spacing lines up okay.  I have seen Hayabusa heads on VWs, and for some reason I think I read about BMW heads on BMC engines, but I thought BMW motorcycles were all boxers.  Crosslinked chains in the mental hard drive?

Most motorcycle engines, like the SR16, are dimensioned like car engines in every way but stroke.  Need lots of bore diameter to be able to fit large enough valves to move enough air to make power.  160-180hp is also a LOT from a 1000cc-1300cc four, and it turns into a relatively tame 2-liter, but the cool factor after doing it is way up there.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

The BMW head on the BMC engine is from a K100, inline 4 cylinder, 1 liter. There is one sitting under my workbench. 

aw614 said:

NickD said:

I think Quinn Kizis has the highest HP N/A NA/NB with his white NB1. Its a 2001 block, 1999-2000 head that's been heavily milled and ported, tons of compression, big Maruha cams, Maruha header and ITBs and made 184whp at 8000+rpm. He drives it on the street but its pretty rude. And I know he said when he milled the head something like 0.100", no one could figure out how to time it and he had to do a bunch of math.

Did the videos you posted below mention anything about timing it? I remember some of his videos and he mentioned he did shave off a lot of the head which did make me wonder how close his valves are close to hitting the pistons. I was wondering how he timed it and how many degrees retarded his timing is at. 

He doesn't really say. I'd imagine adjustable cam gears and maybe relocating the dowel hole for the cam sprocket. I guess its one of those things where if you know something nobody else knows, don't give it away for free.

I love the "all engines are the same". Makes me laugh. I'll just say your buddy has the dumbs. 

The Mazda B6 is remarkable not for its ability to make naturally-aspirated power, but rather it's refusal to make NA power. I had a Racing Beat header, high-flow catalytic converter, cat-back exhaust, and drop-in high-flow air filter and made.....92hp and 79lb-ft of torque to the tires. Which is what they make stock. Most other engines, those bolt-ons would be worth at least 10hp.

In reply to NickD :

That indicates that Mazda did a really good job of engineering those systems.

Power is the ports, cam timing is how much you need to work those ports.  If it has mediocre heads and a small cam profile, nothing you do external to the engine is going to change that.  And mediocre ports will require LOTS of cam to make enough air flow to make power, compared to something with hurricane-efficient ports.

In reply to Appleseed :

You watching Mighty Car Mods latest?

apologies to OP for detour.

You can make a 1.6 liter, 200 horsepower Miata.

Step 1: Install a Honda B16...

In reply to chaparral :

And dyno in reverse.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Some of the drag transmission specialists made reverse rotation transmissions for Honda RWD cars.  Some people were also grinding reverse rotation camshafts too, and I forget if the oil pump got changed or a dry sump was assumed.

Then Honda begat the K series, and all D/B/H performance fell away.

In reply to NickD :

Hyundai Beta's were the same. They really required head porting and cams that don't have so much overlap. I remember "back in the day" a header, intake and cat-back on the would net1 10-15whp total. (EDIT: that would push the 2.0 to a whopping 140-145whp)

After reading the whole thread twice, i have come to the same conclusion as Keith and Flyin Miata: boost or LS the world

Justjim75 said:

After reading the whole thread twice, i have come to the same conclusion as Keith and Flyin Miata: boost or LS the world

If you really want 200 rwhp from a 4 banger, the K24 swap seems to be getting good results.  I don't think a Mazda 1.6 or 1.8 is going to get there unless you spend even more than the K24 swap costs. 

And yes, LS is the easy 300+ rwhp button. 

bobzilla said:

In reply to NickD :

Hyundai Beta's were the same. They really required head porting and cams that don't have so much overlap. I remember "back in the day" a header, intake and cat-back on the would net1 10-15whp total. (EDIT: that would push the 2.0 to a whopping 140-145whp)

There are people in the Saturn world that have modded a single cam motor with all the mods and are lucky to dyno what a DOHC motor does out of the box.  There are a lot of things you can work around in an engine if you are creative, but I think a head that just doesn't flow is probably the hardest.

On a related note, it is amazing how the results from a vehicle with a very tiny following differ from those in the Miata/Honda world.  On paper a Saturn DOHC head, ported, flows enough to make 200crank hp, yet nobody seems to have success making that kind of power.  But, only 5 or 10 people try and are generally unsuccessful.  In the Miata world, tons of people try and there is success.  Similar story with boost.  In a Honda world its similar, only they flow that much and more with no porting needed.  And in the Honda/Mazda case there are aftermarket tuners that put effort into this as well.

The Saturn intake manifold suuuucks.  And there ain't much engine bay room to fix that.