bobzilla said:
pkingham (Forum Supporter) said:
I didn't see anything about dealing maintaining them once installed. All the incentives and funding are around adding new chargers, and the current non-Tesla chargers have significant problems with non-functional units. How are they going to ensure that they keep working after they are installed?
This is another issue.
Good point. I can see a territory electrician who goes out daily and repairs, updates , tests chargers in his territory. Real rural locations might have one per county. While urban locations could have many more.
racerfink said:
Any word about improving the existing (or even building new) power plants to supply all the needed energy for all these superchargers?
Solar and wind in many locations backed up by batteries.
Since they would be stationary. Simple Sodium Aluma ion batteries would be a lot less expensive
Australia and China both have seriously reduced the coal fired power plants and replaced them with renewables and batteries.
JG Pasterjak said:
The "we need better EV infrastructure for them to be truly viable options" side of me is intrigued. But the other side of me has some uneasy feelings about auto makers vertically integrating their product and its consumables. Real "company store" vibes. Just think about how much you hate your inkjet printer then apply that model to your car for a worst-case scenario.
You make a good case, I really hate paying those stupidly high prices from a plastic tank holding some ink.
Long car family vacations tend to be rather rare events. So an occasional splurge for expensive electricity ( still cheaper than gasoline) is sort of like eating meals away from home. Only a rare event.
In reply to frenchyd :
racerfink said:
Any word about improving the existing (or even building new) power plants to supply all the needed energy for all these superchargers?
Solar and wind in many locations backed up by batteries.
Since they would be stationary. Simple Sodium Aluma ion batteries would be a lot less expensive
Australia and China both have seriously reduced the coal fired power plants and replaced them with renewables and batteries.
I was being generous when I said It would take a fair amount of solar. The truth is it would take an incredible amount of solar to power a level 3 charger. A real rough back of the napkin calc looks like a single level 3 charger would need around 30 modules on the low end to charge a Model 3 from 20-80%. If the sun shined 24 hours a day. Since it doesn't and you need to charge your battery storage, you need to at least double that. So 60 modules. Assuming good weather during the day. The standard for solar street lighting is 3 days worth of capacity for storms. Now, you won't have cars charging all day and night, so that helps a bunch, and they won't all charge from empty. So figure, what, 25% usage depending on location? Let's assume that we don't need to plan for weather, we have enough battery storage to get us through and enough dead time to keep them charged. 60 modules per charger then? That's around 1100 sq.ft. of modules per charger. Wow.
Honda is the only company in that group that I would trust to design and implement electrical systems reliability.
Boost_Crazy said:
In reply to frenchyd :
racerfink said:
Any word about improving the existing (or even building new) power plants to supply all the needed energy for all these superchargers?
Solar and wind in many locations backed up by batteries.
Since they would be stationary. Simple Sodium Aluma ion batteries would be a lot less expensive
Australia and China both have seriously reduced the coal fired power plants and replaced them with renewables and batteries.
I was being generous when I said It would take a fair amount of solar. The truth is it would take an incredible amount of solar to power a level 3 charger. A real rough back of the napkin calc looks like a single level 3 charger would need around 30 modules on the low end to charge a Model 3 from 20-80%. If the sun shined 24 hours a day. Since it doesn't and you need to charge your battery storage, you need to at least double that. So 60 modules. Assuming good weather during the day. The standard for solar street lighting is 3 days worth of capacity for storms. Now, you won't have cars charging all day and night, so that helps a bunch, and they won't all charge from empty. So figure, what, 25% usage depending on location? Let's assume that we don't need to plan for weather, we have enough battery storage to get us through and enough dead time to keep them charged. 60 modules per charger then? That's around 1100 sq.ft. of modules per charger. Wow.
Solar and Wind. I can see wind generators along side the freeways incorporated into overhead lights or signs. On each side of the road. The wind kicked up by semi's should generate some power even on calm days/ nights. Remember wind doesn't stop generating because the sun goes down.
Boost_Crazy said:
In reply to frenchyd :
racerfink said:
Any word about improving the existing (or even building new) power plants to supply all the needed energy for all these superchargers?
Solar and wind in many locations backed up by batteries.
Since they would be stationary. Simple Sodium Aluma ion batteries would be a lot less expensive
Australia and China both have seriously reduced the coal fired power plants and replaced them with renewables and batteries.
I was being generous when I said It would take a fair amount of solar. The truth is it would take an incredible amount of solar to power a level 3 charger. A real rough back of the napkin calc looks like a single level 3 charger would need around 30 modules on the low end to charge a Model 3 from 20-80%. If the sun shined 24 hours a day. Since it doesn't and you need to charge your battery storage, you need to at least double that. So 60 modules. Assuming good weather during the day. The standard for solar street lighting is 3 days worth of capacity for storms. Now, you won't have cars charging all day and night, so that helps a bunch, and they won't all charge from empty. So figure, what, 25% usage depending on location? Let's assume that we don't need to plan for weather, we have enough battery storage to get us through and enough dead time to keep them charged. 60 modules per charger then? That's around 1100 sq.ft. of modules per charger. Wow.
1100sq ft heat sink. per charger.
tester (Forum Supporter) said:
Honda is the only company in that group that I would trust to design and implement electrical systems reliability.
Yet Honda is not planning an EV for at least 5 years. I can't blame them. There is so much change in batteries. Plus there is now Electric motors that weigh 78 KG and make 1000 hp. So the current standard of 200pounds for 300 horsepower will be pretty obsolete.
It's like the early days of cars. When every week there were new improvements.
frenchyd said:
Boost_Crazy said:
In reply to frenchyd :
racerfink said:
Any word about improving the existing (or even building new) power plants to supply all the needed energy for all these superchargers?
Solar and wind in many locations backed up by batteries.
Since they would be stationary. Simple Sodium Aluma ion batteries would be a lot less expensive
Australia and China both have seriously reduced the coal fired power plants and replaced them with renewables and batteries.
I was being generous when I said It would take a fair amount of solar. The truth is it would take an incredible amount of solar to power a level 3 charger. A real rough back of the napkin calc looks like a single level 3 charger would need around 30 modules on the low end to charge a Model 3 from 20-80%. If the sun shined 24 hours a day. Since it doesn't and you need to charge your battery storage, you need to at least double that. So 60 modules. Assuming good weather during the day. The standard for solar street lighting is 3 days worth of capacity for storms. Now, you won't have cars charging all day and night, so that helps a bunch, and they won't all charge from empty. So figure, what, 25% usage depending on location? Let's assume that we don't need to plan for weather, we have enough battery storage to get us through and enough dead time to keep them charged. 60 modules per charger then? That's around 1100 sq.ft. of modules per charger. Wow.
Solar and Wind. I can see wind generators along side the freeways incorporated into overhead lights or signs. On each side of the road. The wind kicked up by semi's should generate some power even on calm days/ nights. Remember wind doesn't stop generating because the sun goes down.
Actually it does. At least here on the open plains on north central indiana. Day time wind speeds are 10-15 at my house, night time is 2-5. All the light planes, hot air balloons and powered parachutes come out at dusk because the wind from the day is gone. You lose about 50-70% of your generating power.
tester (Forum Supporter) said:
Honda is the only company in that group that I would trust to design and implement electrical systems reliability.
If it's like their infotainment/hvac setups for the last 15 years it might work if you can figure out how to use it. And then again it might not.
There is a wind powered charger at the OKC Softball complex on the NE side of town. IIRC, it essentially has a charging rate equal to or lower than, charging your car on a standard 120v outlet, not even a 240v.
So that doesn't really seem like a feasible option for urban chargers.
In reply to frenchyd :
VW bought a Chinese EV company for 2 Billion dollars. They had to do something the VW made EV's weren't selling in Europe, Asia, or America as well as Tesla's.
Not sure that was the right move. Chinese labor is no longer a bargain and a lot of young Chinese simply do not want to work on assembly lines. ( not to mention their population is aging out of the work force).
On top of that China's government is at least 51 trillion dollars in debt with estimates as high as 84 trillion.
That amount of debt is extremely inflationary. Which will also raise costs of their products.
Those are some of the reasons so many American companies are reshoring their production.
In reply to bobzilla :
So we're replying to ourselves now?
When I first saw this news pop up in my feed, my first reaction was similar to the reaction I have when I first see a concept car set to go into production:
Hope for the best, expect the worse.
I love the idea of expanding our EV infrastructure, but I also understand there's a lot that can sideways very quickly.
In reply to Colin Wood :
I too look at in in a positive light! More chargers should relieve range anxiety. ( although the real solution is to own an EV and find it's a non-issue )
Maybe things won't be as good as Tesla from the start, but competition will force it to improve? Won't it? Spend billions only to have people use Tesla's because they are faster and more reliable?
z31maniac said:
There is a wind powered charger at the OKC Softball complex on the NE side of town. IIRC, it essentially has a charging rate equal to or lower than, charging your car on a standard 120v outlet, not even a 240v.
So that doesn't really seem like a feasible option for urban chargers.
You are right. Urban wind chargers tend not to be effective. Plus, There is a massive difference in wind chargers. Some are geared which automatically reduces output. Some require input voltage to operate , small ones rarely ever reach payback. Under 100 ft can be working in turbulent air. Older designs have blades shaped more like propellers than wind generators.
Location plays the biggest difference. The weather agency keeps records of wind in every zip code going back over 120 years. Here in the Midwest we tend to have strong steady winds.
Texas is installing 80 giant wind generators in New Mexico because of the strong steady winds. That power is going into Texas. Yes a long way away.
Our wind Farms here in the Midwest feed both Minneapolis and Chicago.
Some wind generators are as tall as 800 feet. At that point they can take advantage of stronger upper air flow.
bobzilla said:
frenchyd said:
Boost_Crazy said:
In reply to frenchyd :
racerfink said:
Any word about improving the existing (or even building new) power plants to supply all the needed energy for all these superchargers?
Solar and wind in many locations backed up by batteries.
Since they would be stationary. Simple Sodium Aluma ion batteries would be a lot less expensive
Australia and China both have seriously reduced the coal fired power plants and replaced them with renewables and batteries.
I was being generous when I said It would take a fair amount of solar. The truth is it would take an incredible amount of solar to power a level 3 charger. A real rough back of the napkin calc looks like a single level 3 charger would need around 30 modules on the low end to charge a Model 3 from 20-80%. If the sun shined 24 hours a day. Since it doesn't and you need to charge your battery storage, you need to at least double that. So 60 modules. Assuming good weather during the day. The standard for solar street lighting is 3 days worth of capacity for storms. Now, you won't have cars charging all day and night, so that helps a bunch, and they won't all charge from empty. So figure, what, 25% usage depending on location? Let's assume that we don't need to plan for weather, we have enough battery storage to get us through and enough dead time to keep them charged. 60 modules per charger then? That's around 1100 sq.ft. of modules per charger. Wow.
Solar and Wind. I can see wind generators along side the freeways incorporated into overhead lights or signs. On each side of the road. The wind kicked up by semi's should generate some power even on calm days/ nights. Remember wind doesn't stop generating because the sun goes down.
Actually it does. At least here on the open plains on north central indiana. Day time wind speeds are 10-15 at my house, night time is 2-5. All the light planes, hot air balloons and powered parachutes come out at dusk because the wind from the day is gone. You lose about 50-70% of your generating power.
Kind of hard to argue with correct facts. Yes you can lose 50% or more of generating power at night. Or if storms come through you can max out generating power. But it all feeds into the battery's.
I forget how many Terawatts Tesla has built. And they are really just getting started. Plus all the batteries they buy from China.
There are whole web sites that lay out who's doing what to renewable power plants. When I go over there I'm in awe of all the proposals, plans, and actual sites in operation.
It's not just Tesla.
In reply to frenchyd :
I don't think geography is your strong suit here. New Mexico being a "long way away" from texas.
I mean its only like 1000 miles or so of border?
Tom1200
PowerDork
7/27/23 10:59 a.m.
One thing not brought up.........while 30,000 more are a start; it's a drop in the bucket of EVs are going to be a significant number of the 290 million cars on the roadway.
frenchyd said:
tester (Forum Supporter) said:
Honda is the only company in that group that I would trust to design and implement electrical systems reliability.
Yet Honda is not planning an EV for at least 5 years. I can't blame them. There is so much change in batteries. Plus there is now Electric motors that weigh 78 KG and make 1000 hp. So the current standard of 200pounds for 300 horsepower will be pretty obsolete.
It's like the early days of cars. When every week there were new improvements.
Wrong, they are coming to market soon and are doing joint products with GM starting next year and an in house design the following year. Also a joint with GM "affordable ev" to be launched sometime in 2027, none are 5 years out at this point.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/04/remember-the-ev-honda-is-building-with-gm-it-goes-on-sale-in-2024/
frenchyd said:
In reply to frenchyd :
VW bought a Chinese EV company for 2 Billion dollars. They had to do something the VW made EV's weren't selling in Europe, Asia, or America as well as Tesla's.
Not sure that was the right move. Chinese labor is no longer a bargain and a lot of young Chinese simply do not want to work on assembly lines. ( not to mention their population is aging out of the work force).
On top of that China's government is at least 51 trillion dollars in debt with estimates as high as 84 trillion.
That amount of debt is extremely inflationary. Which will also raise costs of their products.
Those are some of the reasons so many American companies are reshoring their production.
You do realize that (for the ones sold in the US market) the MY23 VW ID.4 is assembled in Tennessee, with the batteries made in Georgia, right? And that the prior model years were built in Germany?
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a40710813/2023-volkswagen-id4-production-usa/
I mean, I get them building products for China in China... but its not exactly reshoring...
Tom1200 said:
One thing not brought up.........while 30,000 more are a start; it's a drop in the bucket of EVs are going to be a significant number of the 290 million cars on the roadway.
I get what you are saying, but that is more than a drop in the bucket.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2023/02/15/tesla-supercharger-ev-network-white-house/11263341002/
Puts the number of Tesla Superchargers in the US at only 17,000
and
https://www.electrifyamerica.com/
Indicates that they onle have 3,600 chargers....
So, the fact that this will be 1/3rd again two significant rivals combined.... Plus, while ICE cars always need a gas station, EV's only need these for longer trips and most charge at home for day to day...
In reply to bobzilla :
Reshoring does not mean USA. it means North America. Canada, USA, Mexico, Central America, even Columbia is included. (Yes I know, South America).
The reason for that is low labor costs. And cheap transportation. Travel on water is 1/10th the cost of any other form of transportation.
But yes some German companies are relocating to America because we currently have the cheapest natural gas and our labor cost is lower than Germany ( if slightly not as productive).
Even some Chinese companies are moving to Mexico. Look at the property around the new Tesla Giga factory.
Apexcarver said:
frenchyd said:
tester (Forum Supporter) said:
Honda is the only company in that group that I would trust to design and implement electrical systems reliability.
Yet Honda is not planning an EV for at least 5 years. I can't blame them. There is so much change in batteries. Plus there is now Electric motors that weigh 78 KG and make 1000 hp. So the current standard of 200pounds for 300 horsepower will be pretty obsolete.
It's like the early days of cars. When every week there were new improvements.
Wrong, they are coming to market soon and are doing joint products with GM starting next year and an in house design the following year. Also a joint with GM "affordable ev" to be launched sometime in 2027, none are 5 years out at this point.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/04/remember-the-ev-honda-is-building-with-gm-it-goes-on-sale-in-2024/
I wish that were true. But for one thing GM has changed their minds several times recently.
First they were going to cancel the Bolt immediately. Then at the end of this year. Now the Bolt will move to a new plant for next year and it will be updated. ( there is a picture floating around of the new emblem with a Blue lighting strike on the name.)
