SFI De-certifies Impact Racing Products!

redzcstandardhatch wrote: man, racing for real is a HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS! maybe i'll just stick to running for slips on the frontage road.

My frontage road has no sanctioning body.

car39 wrote: Too true. If you read Mario Andretti's autobiography, he talks about a CanAm car with an aluminum roll bar pop riveted to the chassis. Very safe.

To be fair, the entire car was probably thin tubing pop-riveted to sheet aluminum.

Slyp_Dawg wrote: bit of a silly question, but is there any rule that says that safety equipment used in the SCCA and NASA competition HAS to be SFI certified, or can it be FIA certified?

Depending on the series, yes. There's a British standard that is also acceptable.

Slyp_Dawg wrote: bit of a silly question, but is there any rule that says that safety equipment used in the SCCA and NASA competition HAS to be SFI certified, or can it be FIA certified? seems like if you were pissed at SFI and wanted to get at them somehow, buy FIA-certified equipment and race with that. provided it's legal per the letter of SCCA and NASA rules, of course

Which raises the question - if SFI had been charging too much for the labels, could Bill Simpson have gotten a better deal from FIA and had his products still be acceptable race gear?

Appleseed wrote:

redzcstandardhatch wrote: man, racing for real is a HUGE PAIN IN THE ASS! maybe i'll just stick to running for slips on the frontage road.

My frontage road has no sanctioning body.

Mine doesn't have a medical unit on standby...

Knurled wrote: Certainly, I'd hope that a harness stretches a whole lot less than a production seatbelt. I'd never been in a collision with my 5 point on, but if it stretched as much as the seatbelt did in the collision I was in, I bet my liver would have an RCI stamp on it.

Seems to me that one of the benefits of a harness is that there is actually more surface area than there is on a regular 3-pt belt. My crash on the infield at Charlotte years ago was pretty violent, but I had less bruising than I've had in a street car accident.

DILYSI Dave wrote: So what. If that is what someone wants to do, it's their prerogative. This sport started with guys wearing Jeans and T-Shirts running around in open top MGs, Triumphs, Spridgets, etc. with no roll bar, and often not even a seat belt. How we got from that to the world of 2 year harnesses and mandated H&N's amazes me, and is part of the reason our sport is on they dying part of the life cycle curve.

It was the dying part that got us here And not by the event organizers, the push for better safety often came from the drivers themselves.

fastmiata wrote: Racing will cease to exist if the sanctioning bodies are unable to obtain insurance for the events. I dont like it but if the insurance underwriter adds a new requirement, you have to comply or go without insurance. Which do you want? And if you know that a company has a supply of counterfeit labels, how do you proceed?

Unfortunately you're right...

Keith wrote: I really would like to know more about belt construction and why various materials are chosen. For me, it's scientific curiosity. For others, it's obviously a real sore spot Might make a great article for the magazine. The graph I linked is one that's hosted on the Schroth website, but I've seen it elsewhere and the non-english title (is that German?) indicates it's certainly not from SFI. I've seen similar ones usually connected to FIA certification documents. In fact, last time I think I actually dug into the FIA site to find it. Water also has an effect on the strength of nylon SFI belts and far less of an effect on polyester FIA belts apparently. Safety rules are going to be conservative. If we let racers make their own choices, a number of them will make the smart choice. But others will make their roll cages out of 0.040 wall tubing because it's lighter, and some will run the same sun-blasted belts for five years even though they've lost 75% of their strength. Racing's a lot safer than it used to be, and certifications are a big reason why.

I'm bit sketchy on the specifics, it's been a while since I looked at a competition certified harness. But, the differences in material has to do with a number of factors. Oxygen exposure will deteriorate most synthetic materials over time. UV exposure will deteriorate polymers with time as well.

Tensile strength plays a role. But, One of the biggest factors though is stretch. Tensile strength only relates how much force is required to break an object. How far that object stretches before it breaks is critical in this instance. You don't want your harness to stretch far enough for you to contact the cage or other hard bits. Even you standard 3-point seatbelt is different now than it was before the advent of airbags. In a street vehicle some stretch is a good things. Like with crumple zones it has to do with extending the length of time of the impact event. Now airbags help cushion and slow the secondary impact of your body with the interior of the vehicle. Before airbags were introduced automotive seatbelts were less stretchy. A competition harness has some of this incorporated too. What they don't get with the elasticity of the material they make up for with construction. Ever notice how parts of harness are looped back upon itself and stitched together? This is a designed failure point. It takes energy to pop those stitches maybe not much for each stitch, but each one that is sown in has to go and it adds up. This is why you should replace a harness after pretty much any good impact. Even one broken stitch reduces the effectiveness of the harness as a whole.

I do have to agree that this would be a good idea for an article. Not just the vague recollections I can recall right now. I hope this helped a little.

Honestly I am surprised that there isnt some insurance spec that requires that seatbelts in passenger cars on the road can age out.

I have a 1986 E30 daily driver that I have been really debating replacing the belts in. ($170 each on a car I paid $600 for is why I havent already. )

Belts on a street car will age out. Unfortunately enforcement is difficult at best. Since not all states have inspections, Indiana and Michigan to name but two. Insurance companies don't really have the resources to handle that either. The most they could do is require customers to get their belts inspected then that form goes into a file and nothing happens until a claim is filed.

And now this... WTF? April 1st? A winking face near Simpson's signature? Seems like a very very poor idea of a joke if Impact really did release it. The link address implies so, but geez, to joke about something that affects lives is anything but.

http://www.impactraceproducts.com/pdfs/2010/SFI%20Press%20Release_04012010.pdf

griffin729 wrote: Belts on a street car will age out. Unfortunately enforcement is difficult at best. Since not all states have inspections, Indiana and Michigan to name but two. Insurance companies don't really have the resources to handle that either. The most they could do is require customers to get their belts inspected then that form goes into a file and nothing happens until a claim is filed.

Maryland has a state safety inspection and my E30's belts didnt even get a 2nd peek. (the car is 24 years old). They seemed more worried that I might be hiding a broken steering wheel under the cover I put on it. (I like a thick steering wheel and the original leather had holes worn in it)

It has just been announced that everything is hunkydory. They kissed and made up. SCCA says they couldn't care less.

DILYSI Dave wrote: So what. If that is what someone wants to do, it's their prerogative. This sport started with guys wearing Jeans and T-Shirts running around in open top MGs, Triumphs, Spridgets, etc. with no roll bar, and often not even a seat belt. How we got from that to the world of 2 year harnesses and mandated H&N's amazes me, and is part of the reason our sport is on they dying part of the life cycle curve.

the drivers make their decisions, but if the worst happens, it's the next of kin and their lawyers that make decisions. That's whom needs to be worries about.

To follow up on my comments earlier regarding pilot harnesses...by complete coincidence (okay, it's weekly) I happened to be in a staff meeting with an F/A-18 Hornet pilot and a former EA-6B Prowler crew chief, and after the meeting I asked them about harnesses and replacements.

The takeaway:

1. Navy pilots have two types of harnesses that they wear: one is a body harness with multiple straps that holds the pilot's survival gear and links with the survival suit or g-suit. It has nylon straps that are about the thickness of a racing harness, but narrower (about 2"). . The crew chief noted that they are part of the pilot's "personal gear" so the pilot is responsible for checking them and getting them replaced if needed, much like a flight suit, boots or anything else. The pilot said that he inspected the harness before and after every flight, but in 7 years flying had never replaced it, and didn not recall any specific time-frame regulation for replacement other than "replace if damaged or worn."

2. The other harness is to strap the pilot into the plane/ejection seat. Not only does this harness need to survive the sudden acceleration/deceleration/lateral g forces, but it also has to survive ejection at speed, parachute deployment, etc etc. These straps are similar to 3" racing harnesses but about twice the thickness and made of nylon/kevlar from what the crew chief could recall (he retired several years ago). Both of them noted that these were a "check for wear and replace when necessary" item, and did not have a time interval for replacement. The pilot had no idea when or if his had been replaced, but generally had different planes every 2-3 years so he assumed that they were "new" when he got a new plane. The crew chief noted that they replaced these harnesses infrequently while deployed, and occasionally when "back home," but not on a regular schedule. He estimated every 4 or 5 years they became too worn to make spec, but generally because of fraying, nicks, or cuts. Neither of them indicated that material degredation was a concern.

So there it is....and these are belts in planes that go 1000+ mph, make 150mph-to-zero stops on carrier decks daily, and pull multiple-G turns. The harnesses need to put up with far more force than anything a car can create.

Now, what materials they are make of completely, who knows. Kevlar, Cotton, Nylon, something super-secret?

Guess the question is: whatever they pilot harnesses are made of, why can't race harnesses be made out of that stuff, since it sems to not be affected by "light" or "oxygen" or whatever degrades SFI harnesses. I'm sure people would be willing to pay twice the price for a harness that they can use for 10 years instead of two......

irish44j wrote: So there it is....and these are belts in planes that go 1000+ mph, make 150mph-to-zero stops on carrier decks daily, and pull multiple-G turns. The harnesses need to put up with far more force than anything a car can create. Now, what materials they are make of completely, who knows. Kevlar, Cotton, Nylon, something super-secret?

They're made from Chuck Norris' facial hair.