So I want to build an M5

In reply to pinchvalve:

Late-80's Grand Wagoneer with EFI, turbos and whatever crazy brakes you can fit?

I say go for it and when it is all done, come back and look at the thread and tell all the people who say its boring that they can't have a ride! I would freaking love an LS powered E34 wagon with all wheel drive. Another option that you can consider if you want input is use a Toyota UZ series engine with the transmission out of a Tundra. Not as overplayed and will take boost like a champ. It also has 4 cams so it is a little more BMW-esque.

A Peugeot 505 wagon would be the coolest! Are they IRS? The sedans are.

For AWD components that will bolt up and keep it all the the family I would look at what the Sy/Ty guys use, they build massive power and get it to the ground somewhat reliably. Guys have already put a T56 between an LS and a transfer case, so that part is done.

Swapping traction control from a Corvette (light, sticky, low, short wheelbase) to a wagon (heavy, tall, long wheelbase) is not something that can be done overnight but certainly could be done. You would need all the hardware from the Corvette (sensors, ABS module), the certain portion of the PCM code that runs that stuff in the way a Corvette has it enabled, and the means to flash it to the PCM. Then its just a matter of wiring some sensors and switches.

Since the front end of a C5 and the rear end of a C5 share the same knuckles, there is no reason you couldnt drive the front wheels too, except the shocks will be in the way. Custom lower arms on the front to mimic the rear arm shock mounting points are a day in the garage away. Dry sump the motor, run the driveshaft through the area the oil pan used to occupy, set the motor back far enough (and maybe offset a bit) to get a driveshaft and front diff to play nice, and you would have it!

I would imagine you could start with C5 subframes which are a dime a dozen, the rear can be modified to run a standard diff like a Cobra 8.8 center section instead of the diff/trans combo on the C5 very easy.

C5 based suspension would also give you big brakes and room for big wheels, plenty of aluminum components, the steering position sensors and ABS sensors needed to actuate traction control, etc.

DILYSI Dave wrote: Replace E34 with E39, and you've really got something.

Bingo. The first thing I thought of when I saw the original thread was E39 wagon, and then I saw Tommy's post. An E34 would be ok, but an E39 still almost feels like an actual luxury car to me in 2013, and the styling is aging MUCH better than the E34. BMW never made a V8 E39 wagon with a stick, so you'd be building something somewhat unique. Debadge it, slap on a replica M5 bumper and wheels (or go sleeper with 15" basketweaves, 525 badges and a Vassar sticker in the rear window), and you'd end up with a car I think I'd rather own than a CTS-V wagon, for probably less than 1/4 the price of a used one.

Ojala wrote: In reply to yamaha: What? But it seems like Tec II just came out the other day... a few decades ago...sigh...more and more of my hair is grey every time I look in the mirror

Hell, idk really.....I am just kidding with you. It used to be the only thing I could find for BMW's.

As for the syty setup, AWD Oldsmobile bravada setups are pretty similar. Enough so that lingenfelter used it on their awd v8 sonoma IIRC

Another vote for Peugeot!

I like the idea of a LS powered 5-er. Get that BMW engine out of it to piss off the fan-bois.

However, if you are serious at a USTC track or race car, AWD is irrelevant. Also, start with a lighter car. HP/Weight.

93gsxturbo wrote: A Peugeot 505 wagon would be the coolest! Are they IRS? The sedans are. .

No the wagons have a solid rear end. Something close to a D35 IIRC like the Volvo wagons.

I learned to drive in my parents 505 STI wagon. It was a cool ride.

Tom has a lot of youthful ambition and hasn't had the beat down that the Ro-Spit could give a guy. I think a lot of projects happen with what is available. We had dinner yesterday with Rennie Bryant of Redline BMW and he has this car with a blown motor behind his shop. It is parked next to a wrecked M5. Pretty tempting fodder since, we will probably just trade him a roached out Miata or MG for it. I think there are a lot of people that may not want to race, but just want a really cool car to run a track day or even spectate at the Classic Motorsports Mitty, Import Carlisle or the Rolex 24 at Daytona. I was thinking of something for this crowd. You could even tow your race car with this machine.

I can't say I'm interested in every aspect as it's been described so far, but I'm interested in enough of them! I support!

Tom Suddard wrote: But all of those cars cost the same or more than an old 5-series wagon with a blown motor. AWD is a necessary evil. The goal isn't burn-outs, it is a UTCC win.

The Riley didn't have AWD. You are not going to win anything but atta-boys in an E34 wagon with a V8. It would be best go for the 800HP/10k rpm NASCAR road race chassis with an E34 body sitting on top if you want to break into the sub-1:55s at VIR. Not to encourage a proper Ro-Spit beatdown... but damn if it wouldn't bring tears to my eyes to see an E34 whomping on a field of big winged silliness :)

There's a Milano in the local picapart...

In reply to Swank Force One:

I think you just described all the picaparts in the USA with this bit of information.

In reply to pres589:

Heh, this is the first time I've seen a Milano. There's still a BiTurbo in PullAPart though.

And a Renault econobox of some sort.

In reply to Swank Force One:

Probably an R5, which we were sold as the Le Car. And I'm not making that last part up. I rather like the R5 although I have zero direct experience with them.

Tim Suddard wrote: Tom has a lot of youthful ambition and hasn't had the beat down that the Ro-Spit could give a guy. ... You could even tow your race car with this machine.

Say my race car was at Road America and I wanted to get it to Chicago? Just hypothetical, of course.

I think this would be an interesting read. I'm not seeing it being an overall UTCC contender, but it is something I'd like to read about. The AWD seems to me to be extra work, extra weight, and extra expense, but I'm not building it am I?

Looking forward to it!

I say build it and ignore all the whining from the peanut gallery. I don't think it would matter what you built, some of them are going to bitch about it.

Cool car, cool engine and a lot of ambition. What's not to love about it.

Do it.

I like it. A lot! For those of you complaining: have you seen what that ugly fairmont does with a boosted 5.3? Were talking supercar crushing badassedness in a grm priced package. Yes please!

AngryCorvair wrote: stability control is not something i want home-brewed in the car next to / in front of / behind me. to build a system that will execute a response to some combination of input is interesting. to make that response appropriate to more than just a few very narrowly-defined conditions is a three-year effort on a new platform/powertrain or a 1.5- to 2-year effort on an existing platform/powertrain. if you do it, please be sure you don't use it on the street, especially in inclement weather. the person you kill could be my wife.

You've let the lawyers beat the fun out of you. I suppose next you're going to say I need to do a full EMI test on a DIY hybrid in order to ensure it is safe to drive on the street....right?

There's a place for DIY stability control, and it's in a hot rod that already has a custom V8, custom AWD, and is being purpose built to be awesome for a specific race event. Yes, bad things can happen that make it go sideways when you didn't ask it to. So can leaving a bolt loose on about 50 parts you put back on your car at 4 am, or your wife's minivan for that matter.

Bryce

I think the auto+V8+BMW will be a lot of work, but not "new" per se. Lots of little details that ANY swap will bring up will come up. There are 20 companies that are glad to sell you a harness, shift controller, fuel system components, etc. to accomplish this job. Sure, mounts, axles, and some custom exhaust stuff will come up, but again, this has been covered to death in any "Hot Rod"-esque magazine/website/blog. Interesting to see, but not new. However, I have yet to see anybody tackle DIY custom stability control. Traction control is pretty easy, lots of ways to skin that cat with methods that are well established. Stability control is a whole different bag, and I am extremely interested to see what you might come up with. I've thought about it a lot, in combination with electronic throttle control as well, as both are "black boxes" that people are always afraid of.

Here's a newly released doodad that I think could possibly be the first open doodad I've seen with native hardware that could open the door for built in stability control hacking:

http://www.autosportlabs.net/RaceCapture

Note that I said hacking, as this is just a box that could act as an "interpreter"...reading signals, checking it against sensors onboard and added, and putting those signals back out the way you want the black box to see them. Just an idea, with hardware and problems like this, there are lots of ways to skin this cat but none that are established to my knowledge. This project could be done with ANY already existing vehicle...just adding custom stability control would be a major project in itself if you're trying to use a stability control in combination with a powertrain, suspension, electronics, and vehicle control (brakes, steering, etc.) that didn't come together and especially if they came from different companies (like BMW+GM). I'd venture to say this would be a bigger learning experience and better editorial content in itself to see if adding stability control to a vehicle that doesn't have it can be done, how, and if it makes it any faster in the end.

On one hand, I love cool powertrain swaps, and I assure you that you won't hear me complain about your articles on any of them as long as they're not mail-order hot rodding. On the other hand, I like learning NEW stuff that I can't find other places when I flip open a magazine. DIY stability control is perfectly in line with that from my perspective. Keep in mind I'm a very technical nerd hot rodder, so I'm sure I don't represent the average subscriber. So many people are scared to death to fiddle with custom electronic throttle and stability controls, but on a race car is the absolute perfect place for this kind of stuff in my opinion. Closed course. Knowledgeable and aware driver. Huge red button in the driver's grasp. Desire to go fast and tools to accomplish this task. I did the hybrid Fiero build to show people that this isn't "black magic"...it's just new to (most of) you. Turbo chargers, fuel injection, electronic engine controls, etc. have all gone through this learning period where it transitions from "black magic" to "status quo" for people who want to go fast. I think stability control and electronic throttle are soon going to crack into the learning phase and out of black box in the DIY/public/hot rodder domain.

But I'm ranting now...sorry.

Take my long winded rant how you want, either way, the project sounds cool...some parts cooler than others.

Bryce

Call it a BMW C5 both in reference to the vette that you'll have a similar engine too and the C can also stand for cargo or cool or whatever.

Tim Suddard wrote: I think there are a lot of people that may not want to race, but just want a really cool car to run a track day or even spectate at the Classic Motorsports Mitty, Import Carlisle or the Rolex 24 at Daytona. I was thinking of something for this crowd. You could even tow your race car with this machine.

As a cool driver-build, I don't think anyone here would argue this, but that's not what Tom said. He posted a desire to build a UTCC winning machine and that's what has many of us here scratching our heads. Otherwise, I'm all for taking a nice BMW chassis and removing as much of the annoying BMW bits as possible; engine, transmission, electrical systems, etc...

Oh, sorry. I'm not saying that's the goal. I just figured that a BMW wagon with 800 hp would incidentally also be fast enough to do very well at the UTCC.

In reply to Tom Suddard: Hey Tom. As an e34 owner, I like to see a basic LS swap. I have literally thought while driving my 525 that what it really needs to be a great car is more power and slightly better fuel mileage. A stouter auto trans would be nice too. What does all that add up to? LS swap of course.

That might not be the most riveting magazine article, but as a practical driver car, its a home run. Let your dad build the Lotus, or what ever it is that he's cooking up in the other thread for UTCC, and then tow it there in comfort and style in the LS powered Bimmer.