So let's talk 'Five Oh' swaps (E36 vs FC)

So I've been wrestling for months now without resolution with the question of "what next?" after my Cramit (hopefully, eventually) sells. The car would be a sunny day driver, auto x steed, and I'd like to run some track days as well. Budget is roughly $4k for initial purchase and build.

I'm kind of all over the place in what I'm looking at, but one of the most frequently recurring thoughts is doing a 5.0 swap on either an E36 or FC RX7. This idea appeals to me because it nets a lighter, more nimble, and better balanced car without giving up the rip snorting V8 fun and huge aftermarket I enjoy about the Camaro. Plus, I've never done an engine swap before and that's been a major life goal for me since my early teen years. The 5.0 swap is well established now in each of these chassis and seems easy enough for a first timer with reasonable mechanical inclination using either the Granny's or E36v8 kit.

Question number one is which chassis to go for? The E36 platform is the devil I know, having previously owned and loved a 97 328is, but the FC is intriguing as well, though I've never driven or been inside one. The Mazda seems to hold a decent weight advantage and is less cramped in the engine bay, where it seems the Bimmer can run into clearance issues with the steering rack and master cylinder and sometimes requires creative plumbing of the exhaust, while the German perhaps has the better suspension design and I'm familiar with the handling upgrades. Anyone care to compare the driving experience between the platforms? What does it take to improve the FC's handling? What about the nuisances in each chassis one might encounter in doing the swap?

As for the engine, I'm not super familiar with the old school SBFs, but it seems like a late 90s Exploder would be the donor of choice. Cheap fox body Mustangs are rapidly drying up around these parts, while Exploders are still cheap and offer the roller cam motor with GT40 heads and intake. What does a complete motor with wiring, computer, and accessories goes for from a junk yard these days? Would you bother with a rebuild, or at least a mild refresh, prior to throwing it in? Any upgrades needed to make these survive sustained G's on the track? What kind of power would I be looking at with an FRPP letter cam and some shorty headers in an otherwise stock motor? 250whp would be a nice start, with the ultimate goal of winding up somewhere in the 300 range further on down the line. What's it going to take to get there?

And to head off the 'why not an LS?' crowd...simple answer is cost (doesn't hurt that the SBF sounds better too.) I know a 4.8 or 5.3 truck motor is supposedly dirt cheap, makes at least 280hp at the crank bone stock, and is only a cam away from much more. But all the little fiddly bits an LS seems to need and an SBF doesn't (LS1 intake, f body accessories, oil pan, ect), not to mention the difference between a T5 and T56, add up to a not insignificant cost difference. This seems to be especially true in the Bimmer, where the SBF just seems to fit much better, while the LS leads to a number of additional complications, such as wanting to occupy the same space the steering shaft does. Frankly, I just don't see the LS swap happening within my budget (unless someone decides to plow into the Camaro and turn it into a donor). I'm always open to being convinced otherwise, though.

So, thoughts?

I don't have much to add other than I think a 5.0 e36 seems like a really great car.

E30 SBF swapper here. I believe the SBF oil pan fits the E36 better than the E30? Hopefully so, the way you have to cut it down to fit the E30 chassis just doesn't allow for track work. I have the bits and pieces to prove it. 300 whp isn't much trouble if the package is well matched. The letter cams are old and outdated, much better options out there (including custom for not much money). The GT40 intake can be ported for better flow. Keep the RPMs down, 5k is a good limit.

After blowing my junkyard 302 I had a 347 built and dry-sumped it. Quite frankly, it's a riot. I'm using a carb intake and an FiTech EFI setup, but I'm pretty sure the E36v8 manual covers the wiring nicely for maintaining the Ford efi.

Main advantage to the FC chassis is the massive transmission tunnel. There are also kits for mounting a Ford 8.8 IRS diff in them - I have one and it's excellent.

Having owned an E36, I'd probably go with the FC. Lighter weight, more space, better-looking. There are a lot of compromises involved in cramming a SBF into an E36. And people have been putting them in FCs for decades now, I have to think most of the bugs are worked out.

I am in the last 2 or 3 days of the E36 swap.

I don't know anything about the Mazda package. It's hard to find those chassis at the track around here much. Tons of E36.

In the E36, the Ford 302 w/ T5 is a really nice combo; the motor and trans are actually a touch smaller than the stock set, and the weight is essentially the same. It's actually less once you toss the heavy iron heads and get aluminum aftermarkets. The motor is really held back by the stock heads. The valves are just too small and that pulls down horsepower more than 100HP at the crank. With heads, intake, camshaft, and 2.5" dual exhaust you can do 350HP without boost. That's all the transmission and diff can handle anyway.

This is not my first motor swap, or even my first cross-chassis swap, but it was my first cross BRAND swap. It has been great fun and I have learned a ton. But it has taken a looooong time. I am coming up on a year now.

If I hadn't been able to shape and weld my own exhaust from raw tubing, and fabricate my own accessory brackets and the like, I wouldn't have been able to do this for cheap. I'm not sure of my total budget but it's in the neighborhood of $3K. That's $1K higher than it would have been with junkyard motor and trans. I paid up for a used but freshly rebuilt motor, transmission, and EFI system as a turnkey package with proof of horsepower and driveability.

I didn't have steering shaft clearance problems, though I did change the big bulky stock lower U-joint into the Flaming River one. The "hump" in the Foxbody oil pan fits over the stock E36 rack just fine and I was able to re-use the stock P/S cooler.

I didn't have exhaust problems. I just used two passenger side shorty MAC headers and ran the left side facing forward. Plenty of room for a dual 2.5" exhaust. Also if you're going the Explorer motor route, it has a stock header that's compact enough to route the regular way.

The driver's side header is kinda close to the ABS pump. I relocated mine to the front of the engine bay on the same side. Kind of a PITA. Most people skip it anyway. My only concern is this is a 100% track car and I will be getting those headers HOT for LONG periods of time. I also threw out the stock radiator, but the thick Jegs universal hotrod replacement model with the Ford routing fits perfectly. Even stock Mustang radiator hoses fit perfectly.

And converting the T5 to hydraulic clutch also took some time to think out a rock-solid solution. They key is the Miata clutch fork cylinder -- guys in the Miata/302 community have been using it for a while, but I was the first I know of to give it a try in the BMW community. Also I re-used the E36 power steering pump, and fabricating a bracket for it was a PITA too, because the alignment has to be so perfect.

Explorer motor will need a better camshaft, and better springs for the heads. The Explorer intake and heads (after spring upgrade) are better than the stock Mustang counterparts anyway. Check out Five Oh Info website for all you need to know. Good to hear you have availability in your area. There were a ton of Explorers in the day, but around here, everybody got the 6 cylinder.

You will also need a different ECU than the Explorer. A Foxbody 5.0 Mustang harness and computer would work well but in the used market they seem to go for as much as a Megasquirt II kit & harness costs. The only guy I know who used the Explorer donor went that route.

Google Mikael (NOT Michael) Vroom's web site for loads of details. He also hangs out on the Bimmerfest engine conversions forum and will answer any question you ask pretty much right away.

A Foxbody/T5 drive shaft fits perfect. You just need a conversion U-joint, and the differential adapter that JTR sells, and to hammer the tunnel right at the very back. There's no room for anything thicker than the stock Foxbody stuff. An aftermarket 2-incher would fit even better without the hammering.

E36V8's engine mounts have gotten a lot better. They are now genuinely sturdy and fit the car & motor well.

Why not 1,2,3uzfe? Whole swap will cost about 2k. That leaves budget room to turbo it. Go down in history as a legend.

ross2004 wrote: E30 SBF swapper here. I believe the SBF oil pan fits the E36 better than the E30? Hopefully so, the way you have to cut it down to fit the E30 chassis just doesn't allow for track work. I have the bits and pieces to prove it. 300 whp isn't much trouble if the package is well matched. The letter cams are old and outdated, much better options out there (including custom for not much money). The GT40 intake can be ported for better flow. Keep the RPMs down, 5k is a good limit. After blowing my junkyard 302 I had a 347 built and dry-sumped it. Quite frankly, it's a riot. I'm using a carb intake and an FiTech EFI setup, but I'm pretty sure the E36v8 manual covers the wiring nicely for maintaining the Ford efi.

Can you expand on the Fitech experience? I have that system on the radar for the Molvo project. Is it something that you would drive cross-country without a second thought?

NOHOME wrote:

Can you expand on the Fitech experience? I have that system on the radar for the Molvo project. Is it something that you would drive cross-country without a second thought?

Let me put it this way: I will never, ever, ever own a carburetor again. Ever.

It's the cat's ass. I can't say enough good things about it. Before with a carb and no choke and lumpy cam I would have to constantly baby the throttle just to keep it running. Now I can lean in through the window, hit the start button and walk away. Low to mid-range power as well as throttle response is noticeably improved. Installation is a breeze. Seriously, I love it.

In reply to ross2004:

You mention dry-sumping (better watch my spelling on that one ) your 347...is oiling a concern for these motors on track?

Trackmouse wrote: Why not 1,2,3uzfe? Whole swap will cost about 2k. That leaves budget room to turbo it. Go down in history as a legend.

I'm admittedly a bit clueless on the Toyota V8 swaps, but I was under the impression that mating them to a manual is a bit of an ordeal, and an automatic is abso-freakin-lutely out of the question.

Regardless, I'm looking for more of a tried and true route on this project, as I fear the odds of it still sitting in my garage not running 5 years from now are greatly reduced that way.

In reply to JBasham:

Thanks for the info, that's all hugely helpful. Do you have a build thread? I'd love to read about your project in more detail. Also, be sure to post videos once it's running.

Do you mind sharing more info on your motor, efi setup, and where it was sourced? Turn key setup actually sounds pretty appealing. I'm definitely not locked into the Exploder route and don't actually know how plentiful they are around here, I was just knew they were one of the more desirable 5.0s and figured they were probably easier to find than a Mustang donor nowadays. Hadn't considered the potential ECU issue either, assuming that's because most are OBDII?

had an e36 v8. It will take time but you can do it. it was a riot- BUT it was no longer a BMW.

like I had transformed a scalpel into a machete.

lots of guys make 300 hp with explorer motor + e303 + valvesprings. The stock 302 bottom end is good to 6500 or so RPM, but airflow can't keep up with it.

Mine had stock mustang everything and an e303 cam (I got it used while the engine was out so I said why not). it made 207 hp at the wheels. In a fully stripped e36 I could hardly put the power down.

For the clutch slave on the t5, I made a simple bracket that bolted to the trans and then bolted to the stock e36 slave. I had to add threads and a ball nut to the end of the slave rod, but it worked perfect and there was no messing with hydraulic fittings.

EDIT: Here was one of my first start videos -

https://www.youtube.com/watch? v=26icoaoVgFA

Furious_E wrote: In reply to ross2004: You mention dry-sumping (better watch my spelling on that one ) your 347...is oiling a concern for these motors on track?

No more than any other engine really, but if you're pulling more than 1G I would get a baffled pan. An Accusump is also cheap insurance. Also, oil drain back out of the heads can be a concern with sustained high RPMs. You can open up and chamfer the drain holes in the head and block to help.