So long SCCA Stock; hello Street

Personally, I've always been in favor of getting "crack off the streets" (see what I did there?). At my local club, almost no one runs them (kind of a gentlemen's agreement), so the stock classes end up hit pretty hard in the PAX index. I've also found it ends up being a head scratcher for people who are thinking of getting into autocross that "stock" class will require that they buy a 2nd set of wheels and race tires if they want to compete anywhere above the local level.

Anyone know if the re-classification portion of the proposal also passed? That's the part I'm not crazy about. At a local level, I've always been "in range" with my 94 "non-R package" Miata. From what I've seen with times this year, if the NB's and MR2's get dumped into E Stock, I'm pretty much relegated to the middle of the pack at best. What's more, in our club, C stock will be a ghost town and about 15-20% of total entries will suddenly be in E Stock.

I would assume the re-classification went thru also since that was part of the proposal.

Updating the PAX numbers is not going to be any fun.

The SS 'Vette guys are berkeleyed. It's way, way cheaper to run take-off A6s than to feed the street tire habit of one of those things.

The rumor now is that because of a drastic drop in demand, Hoosier will pull back on the A6 and only offer the R6--if so the SP types, like me (who will use a Hoosier only 275/35-15), get hosed. Hope the rumor is only a rumor...

jr02518 wrote: Updating the PAX numbers is not going to be any fun.

Hopefully they'll wait at least a full season so they can see how the balance of performance changes among classes and vehicles before changing PAX or the classing. I'm excited by this. I knew things were off when I saw more stock cars being trailored to events than all other classes combined... Obviously some will still be buying shaved street tires three times a year, and $1500 shocks, but I really believe the difference will be a lot closer to those (like me) who want to drive a mostly stock car every day, drive to and from an event, drive home, and drive every day some more, with little/no effort. I have other vehicles/venues for modifying/tinkering, I just don't want to spend much time and money for how little time is actually spent at an AX.

really don't think much will change ... the fast drivers on Ho-Ho's will probably still be the fast drivers on street tires ... they're fast for a reason, and it's not the tires

I look at it as giving the appearance of lower cost but really won't be the case. The +/-1" really screws that up. Look at today if you have a stock car the game is simple to have a car prepped to run at the front. Shocks, sway bar, alignment, light wheels in stock size, and the widest hoho's you can buy (of which there are almost 60 sizes from 13" to 20") sure there's more but that's the basics. Now its all that stuff plus you have to pick a brand of tire (testing and possibility of multiple tire/rim sets due to strengths of each brand) as well as 3 available rim diameters for each car. Also all of those tires need to be shaved most likely. Do not kid yourself if you don't think the fast guys will have different sets of rims with different tire brands and diameters on them to change depending on course design or weather. Also I hate the fact that the street tires simply do not have the size availability of Hoosiers. Rivals are only available in 15-20 sizes.

FSP_ZX2 wrote: The rumor now is that because of a drastic drop in demand, Hoosier will pull back on the A6 and only offer the R6--if so the SP types, like me (who will use a Hoosier only 275/35-15), get hosed. Hope the rumor is only a rumor...

If true, that will suck. I had feared pulling R-comps out of street would alter Hoosier's participation, development of new tires, etc. But I'll wait for an official announcement before I begin flinging poo at all the street class cars and drivers.

In reply to wbjones and nocones:

I agree with both of you.

The "Street" class presents an illusion that gives those without r-comps some hope and little else. With the new rules, the gap from the front-runners will be 2-3 seconds instead of 5-6. (Most) people will still finish in positions relative to where they are now. There will still be a high cost factor for testing and development.

something, something - the more things change - something, something

If Hoosier drops the A6 and produces only R6's, there may be the benefit of longer tire life for those who want to keep using Ho-Ho's. So, there's that.

Hmm... I don't know... I remember reading somewhere Hoosier sells a substantial number of A6's to road racers for qualifying and such. Plus there is still the Mod, Prepared and Street Prepared classes. I doubt 275/35-15 sales will drop much at all. The only Stock car that used them was the ITR and even less so after it stopped being "the car" to have.

I'm sure Hoosier is in "wait and see" mode. Perhaps they'll even develop a 200TW street tire. Who knows... I get the feeling the Stock crowd isn't as important to their overall sales as some suspect.

At the pointy end of the field, no - there won't be much savings at all with the need for tire testing and possibly even having multiple sets since some tires work better on different surfaces and at different temperatures.

Personally, I wouldn't rush out and buy any car for a class right now... in theory, lighter and AWD cars will have an advantage, so I'd place money on some class shuffling over the next few years. It'll be interesting, for sure.

wbjones wrote: really don't think much will change ... the fast drivers on Ho-Ho's will probably still be the fast drivers on street tires ... they're fast for a reason, and it's not the tires

What will change is not having to spend $1500 for tires.

As one person (who was a champion of not using thinly-veiled slicks in Stock) put it - at the national championship, there was over a million dollars worth of single-use tires there that did not need to exist.

In reply to wbjones:

I proved at a few events the tires were the difference.......I hated learning the ropes and faced with "run against the Mini on hohos in H-stock or the spec civic in STS at the time.

The redline, a few times I was beat by hoho cars, and a few times I beat the hoho cars. Star specs love redlines for some reason.

oldsaw wrote: In reply to wbjones and nocones: I agree with both of you. The "Street" class presents an illusion that gives those without r-comps some hope and little else. With the new rules, the gap from the front-runners will be 2-3 seconds instead of 5-6. (Most) people will still finish in positions relative to where they are now. There will still be a high cost factor for testing and development. something, something - the more things change - something, something If Hoosier drops the A6 and produces only R6's, there may be the benefit of longer tire life for those who want to keep using Ho-Ho's. So, there's that.

I really think that the delta will stay the same ... taking away R-Comps from the slow drivers will cause them to slow down AT LEAST as much as the fast drivers ... maybe even more .. since it takes more driver ability to drive fast on crappy tires than it does to drive fast on great tires ... so I see the delta maybe even growing ... then what will the slow drivers us as an excuse ?

wbjones wrote: since it takes more driver ability to drive fast on crappy tires than it does to drive fast on great tires ... so I see the delta maybe even growing ... then what will the slow drivers us as an excuse ?

Obamacare.

Knurled wrote:

wbjones wrote: really don't think much will change ... the fast drivers on Ho-Ho's will probably still be the fast drivers on street tires ... they're fast for a reason, and it's not the tires

What will change is not having to spend $1500 for tires. As one person (who was a champion of not using thinly-veiled slicks in Stock) put it - at the national championship, there was over a million dollars worth of single-use tires there that did not need to exist.

This is a big one. To put my 2 on Hoosiers would have cost me $1000 for tires and another couple of hundred for wheels and I'd only be able to use them twice a month maybe and would need a new set for nationals. It was $550 to order a set of Star Specs and have them put on. The lasted a year of twice a month autocrosses and 12,000 miles of street driving. I still would have needed a new set for nationals, but I could have driven there on them, learned that I was slow, driven home and run them for another year.
Hoosiers are one of the reasons I got out of autocross the first time. I couldn't afford them with two little kids in diapers, and without them I couldn't even measure myself against the fast guys. Sometimes that extra $500 is the difference between a guy staying and getting better, and packing it up for a decade.

all that is as good a reason for the ST classes as I've ever heard ... one time costs to do the mods ... after that it's street tires ...

That's why I ran STF with my 2. I love the ST classes, but if you think prepping a car for them is cheap, you're wrong.
I think there's a lot of good reasons to have stock classes. It is a direct comparison of car against each other as delivered. It's a place to play for people who really do autocross their daily driver and can't afford to compromise it. And lastly, it give a place to drive where (at least in perception) one can't simply buy yourself more speed.

Well, not until you spend $2000/corner for fancy shocks with bizarre damping characteristics to mimic having better springs, in order to better control a chassis with fat gumball slicks on it...

And all this is why I run in E Modified. Yeah it means a trailer etc but I am not limited by anything other than my overheated imagination. I am a bit of a cheapskate (NOOO!!! Say it ain't so!) and since I made the switch to bias slicks my tire bill has dropped dramatically.

I do have to agree that as mazdeuce says Stock is now a place for those who really do want to AX their daily driver competitively in class and can't really justify spending huge amounts of money on tires and changing the alignment to where it now eats tires the way Rosie O'Donnell goes through a ham buffet.

There is a lot of validity to the statement that fast drivers are fast drivers no matter the equipment. The bald truth is that even a fast driver can't bend the laws of physics to the point where tires etc truly do not matter.

mazdeuce wrote: That's why I ran STF with my 2. I love the ST classes, but if you think prepping a car for them is cheap, you're wrong. I think there's a lot of good reasons to have stock classes. It is a direct comparison of car against each other as delivered. It's a place to play for people who really do autocross their daily driver and can't afford to compromise it. And lastly, it give a place to drive where (at least in perception) one can't simply buy yourself more speed.

didn't mean to indicate that prep/mod is cheap ... but pretty much it's a one time deal ... once you've found the recipe, bought and installed the parts ... it's go and play, with very few changes coming your way (unless you just like to fiddle with things)

those with the time and expertise tend to do all the experimenting ... I just sit back and wait ... when they figure out what works it's usually posted somewhere ... copy and go (yes we're sheeple LOL ) + I drive a car that's been done by hundreds/thousands of people (spec Civic/CRX)

so compared to stock/street, where you're going to have to experiment with what wheels, what sizes, what tires, what shocks ...etc... including what car, me personally ... I'm pretty well set LOl

Way back when I first started autocrossing I was pretty disillusioned when I found out to be competitive for a win I would have to buy another set of tires and wheels. Being poor that wasn't going to happen. So over the years I never really got as far into it as I would have liked to. I've never prepped a car for a particular class, because I couldn't afford to. I've never driven on an auto x course on a tire that wasn't all season and had less than a 400 TW rating.

Even though I've never had a car that is particularly suited to auto x, the fact that I would never be competitive no matter what is the main culprit as to why I never did more than two or three events a year.

The biggest thrill was the time I was less than two seconds slower than an STI on star specs while I was driving my Grand Prix on 400 TW all seasons.

From my perspective this is a good thing.

It's not going to end up much different than now. You're still going have a second set of wheels and tires to be at the pointy end, and it won't take long for someone to start creating tires for this purpose only. It's simply a short term mask.

I like it. When I bought the s2k I wanted to go to B-stock, but I underestimated the cost and the lifespan of Hoosiers (also getting a hitch and trailer to get them to/from the event) and ended up doing a low buck STR build. $700 for a set of tires that I can get 2 full seasons out of is pretty darn appealing.

Although I'm sure there will be guys still trailering their shaved street tires or trailering the entire car, just the gap will be less than before.

One question though, with the tread depth rule, does that affect shaving them? Or is that just that the tire must have that much tread when new?