It might be drag racing but....
Yeah without getting on a soapbox, the governor didn't take any E36 M3 from hobby lobby so I doubt he's going to take any from a racetrack. Track owner said some pretty disgusting things and i'm taking my business to dragway 42 from now on. Yes i want to race, no i'm not giving him any of my money to do so
In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :
Curious what the Bader's have done in the past against you...
I'll only get on the soapbox long enough to say the whole deal is a double standard without "resources" available for those considered "non-essential" in someone's opinion.
Nothing in the past, I just don't like how he's playing the "i'm ok if people die because my financial situation is more important than x other people who also can't do business right now because i'm selfish" card. berkeley him
In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :
We will have to agree to disagree.
In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :
I'm with you here.
Does Summit sponsor the track?
One of those links does it right as a business, the other one absolutely wrong.
I'm sorry, but any business that comes out and puts profits for entertainments sake over public health and peoples lives in direct contravention to laws that blatantly in their business communications wont get my money. I'm with Patrick on this one. If he just slams open the gates and tries to draw people in and fights police order he deserves to spend some time in the greybar hotel. It also SCREAMS to me that they really dont give a rats arse about peoples safety, only making money off of them. Not what I look for when I choose a racing venue.
The other link... where they created a plan to ensure safe operation and worked with public officials, THATS how you responsibly operate a business.
In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :
I'm with you.
I raised an eyebrow when I saw an employee of our local road course post on his personal facebook page they were going to do a surprise HPDE, because everyone could remain far enough from each other in the pits.
I'm not going to be the one to rat them out, but I can't imagine how doing track days could be considered "essential" in any way, shape, or form. I know Remington Park told the OKC SCCA group, they can't have another AutoX until June at the earliest.
OOOF.
Here's a guy who is going to learn the power of social media; and more than likely its power to bite you in the ass.
I have now watched this entire installment on FB. This is my local track, only 15 minutes from my house. I get FB updates from the track. I watched a similar speech on FB earlier this year as he gave the announcements that all was being put on hold. I had not watched this one until I saw this posting here.
I'm not in a position to fully criticize nor defend his actions. What I saw here was the ramblings of a real guy, a guy in deeeep debt, who is scared of the future. For some context, a lot of his deep debt is from having made some very significant upgrades including not a repave of the track but a recent full rip up, down to dirt and relaying the entire surface.
In his rant, he makes some unwise and irresponsible allegations like that the "shut-downs" will remain in place until the election and implying that this is by design. For some context, I can see why he might not trust the gov't. Just a few years back, The FAA, DOT, and his county officials almost put him out of business with no regard for the well being of his business. Yes, the FAA.
You see, his track shares a fence with the small plane, county owned, airstrip.
To paraphrase the situation, the FAA was telling him that due to new rules he would have to take down the last 4 overhead lamp posts at the end of the track. If these lamp posts come down then he no longer meets the requirements of NHRA. Without the lights he looses the NHRA endorsement, events and his facility insurance. He would be out of business. He has gone as far as to offer to buy the County the land for a new airstrip. The county in mostly agriculture. There is lots of land and all is flat. He is the single largest tourist attraction in this rural county bring in visitors for far and wide to the national events yet he feels his own county officials would rather have him out of business. Searching brought me to other articles that claim his facility has a $100 million annual financial impact for the county. Not $100 million that goes into his pocket but rather money spent on hotels, restaurants, gas, etc. He personally employs 26 full time, annual workers and 400 seasonal, event workers.
Reports from 2017:
https://dragillustrated.com/bader-jr-rallies-support-to-fight-faaodot-ruling-against-light-poles/
http://nwweb.libercus.net/Local/2017/03/10/Chamber-asking-members-to-go-to-bat-for-raceway
The net result he got a ruling change from the FAA. He how has 3, never been done before, lamp posts at the end of the track. It seems like a simple solution that the poles are now red/white striped with a red light on top but getting it done required enormous push against the FAA.
As someone whose has most of their relatives in NYC and has a couple fo family members in the high risk we're taking this seriously but there are ways to do events within the guidelines.
I'm also balancing that with the fact that I'm dealing with suppliers everyday, many of them are anxious for their business and their employees. You cannot dismiss this, they have every right to be worried.
It is possible to hold events within the guidelines and not put people at risk just as Darlington Dragstrip has proposed. Now will those modified events keep a struggling business afloat?...............maybe not.
As for Summit Raceway and others ranting it's understandable but you still need to follow the guidelines.
In reply to Apexcarver :
I believe in personal responsibility and safety. I also believe in the rule if law. One common misconception is that the unilateral decrees regarding this virus are laws. These are not laws. They are bureaucratic decrees made using emergency powers.
I will be staying home a while longer myself, however, most of the decrees made during this time are down right Orwellian in nature. This is erosion of our rights. If people want to open tracks and race their cars, they should be allowed to. If that causes health issues, that's the personal responsibility side of things.
I do take strong exception with anyone thinking most of these decrees are lawful though. I assure you this is using a crisis as a powergrab by a very small group. That will have long term consequences too. I'd recommend people prepare themselves for that too, but I already know some here and others are not prepared to discuss it.
z31maniac said:In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :
I'm with you.
I raised an eyebrow when I saw an employee of our local road course post on his personal facebook page they were going to do a surprise HPDE, because everyone could remain far enough from each other in the pits.
I'm not going to be the one to rat them out, but I can't imagine how doing track days could be considered "essential" in any way, shape, or form. I know Remington Park told the OKC SCCA group, they can't have another AutoX until June at the earliest.
Part of the problem there is you're conflating "non-essential" with "unsafe". It's super easy to run a track day without ever having to come within ten feet of another human beng. Is it an essential activity? No. Can it be executed in a way that has effectively zero chance of spreading the virus (and is about an order of magnitude less risky than going grocery shopping right now)? Absolutely. Autocross is another beast entirely that's virtually impossible to properly enforce social distancing. Of course in the case of the track day, if they were doing it without the approval of the relevant state/local government orgs, that's asking for a lot of trouble. But I could pretty easily see it being signed off on. That all said, the norwalk people are absolutely going about this the wrong way and I can only imagine it's going to backfire onthem fairly hard.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Apexcarver :
I believe in personal responsibility and safety. I also believe in the rule if law. One common misconception is that the unilateral decrees regarding this virus are laws. These are not laws. They are bureaucratic decrees made using emergency powers.
I will be staying home a while longer myself, however, most of the decrees made during this time are down right Orwellian in nature. This is erosion of our rights. If people want to open tracks and race their cars, they should be allowed to. If that causes health issues, that's the personal responsibility side of things.
I do take strong exception with anyone thinking most of these decrees are lawful though. I assure you this is using a crisis as a powergrab by a very small group. That will have long term consequences too. I'd recommend people prepare themselves for that too, but I already know some here and others are not prepared to discuss it.
Thank YOU. i was surprised someone upthread called these decrees 'laws'. Im not a legal scholar, but the Constitution and (the Bill of Rights) are the 'Law of the Land' and pre-empt any thing a pissant mayor or governor can decree.
I am absolutely glad and fully supportive of folks pushing back. Im just surprised and disappointed it has taken so long.
And for those that dont think these decisions are being made from a political perspective, you are either naive or being political yourself.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Apexcarver :
I believe in personal responsibility and safety. I also believe in the rule if law. One common misconception is that the unilateral decrees regarding this virus are laws. These are not laws. They are bureaucratic decrees made using emergency powers.
This.
The Covid outbreak can be taken seriously without destroying our economy and society. Here's some numbers for perspective from John Hopkins University Covid site...
As of today, 0.2% of the US population has tested positive for Covid.
As of today, 0.01% of the US population has died from Covid.
As of today Covid deaths represent approximately 1% of total number of deaths annually in the US.
Obviously, these number will go up with time, but it's simply not going to kill half the population and it's time to stop treating it like will if we don't lock down the whole country. We are doing immeasurable and long-term harm to small businesses, like the dragstrip in the OP, out of fear. And there's no question that this has been manipulated for political purposes. On both sides... it's the nature of government.
It's pretty easy to understand where the dragstrip owner is coming from...
FatMongo said:And for those that dont think these decisions are being made from a political perspective, you are either naive or being political yourself.
I'm curious what you think the rationale is (politically) in all of the other countries enacting social distancing orders?
I'll try to leave the politics out of it, but you have to admit there are ways to have a private track day that has absolutely no more contact than you would have picking up groceries at your local Walmart. Now a full blow drag race with spectators could be a harder nut to crack. Not impossible though.
ProDarwin said:FatMongo said:And for those that dont think these decisions are being made from a political perspective, you are either naive or being political yourself.
I'm curious what you think the rationale is (politically) in all of the other countries enacting social distancing orders?
Here is my short answer to your question:
The vast majority of the world is OK with a collectivist mentality in which they cede their freedom to the State.
Some world leaders/government are no doubt using this as an excuse to strengthen their grip on power and further emplace the boot on the populaces' neck
Other world leaders are literally stupid/ignorant/followers and are going along with the 'big countries' because they have been panicked.
Some are a mixture of evil/stupid and are truly panicked but also calculating enough to use this as a means to increase control of their populace
Some governments/leaders truly think they are doing the right thing.
Sorry to rain on you guys, but governors executive orders DO carry the force of law.
There is good citation here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order#State_executive_orders
Listen, we could really get into a flounder about views on governments roles in saving people from themselves. I would say that we are likely to be on opposite sides of the spectrum on it. But the thing is that courts have upheld most of the orders you are on about. Now, you could say that your personal freedoms supersede the courts views, but thats just getting down a rabbit hole.
Apexcarver said:Sorry to rain on you guys, but governors executive orders DO carry the force of law.
There is good citation here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order#State_executive_orders
Listen, we could really get into a flounder about views on governments roles in saving people from themselves. I would say that we are likely to be on opposite sides of the spectrum on it. But the thing is that courts have upheld most of the orders you are on about. Now, you could say that your personal freedoms supersede the courts views, but thats just getting down a rabbit hole.
At some point courts upheld all kinds of crazy laws - including segregation. This kind of overreach has never happened nationally and there is a pent up backlash that is getting ready to burst the dam. Our Nation wasnt created so that low level politicians could run it by fiat. There is a system of check sand balances and limitations on power. The mayor of a locality cannot just decree that the Bill of Rights is 'off' for an undeterminate amount of time.
Personal responsibility is great and I wish there was more of that going around.
That said, if people choose to partake in activities like this right now and get sick? They are now MY responsibility as a person in the world we all live in.
Your personal responsibility ends when it starts to erode ALL of ours by helping to spread the infection because you can't be bothered to wait a little longer to go racing, etc.
This is not like someone choosing to get drunk/high and go mow their lawn in the nude or go for a hike, etc. Partaking in group activities that aren't essential is just potentially putting a naked drunk/high person in a lawnmower in the middle of our homes and that's bullE36 M3.
Rodan said:AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Apexcarver :
I believe in personal responsibility and safety. I also believe in the rule if law. One common misconception is that the unilateral decrees regarding this virus are laws. These are not laws. They are bureaucratic decrees made using emergency powers.
This.
The Covid outbreak can be taken seriously without destroying our economy and society. Here's some numbers for perspective from John Hopkins University Covid site...
As of today, 0.2% of the US population has tested positive for Covid.
As of today, 0.01% of the US population has died from Covid.
As of today Covid deaths represent approximately 1% of total number of deaths annually in the US.
Obviously, these number will go up with time, but it's simply not going to kill half the population and it's time to stop treating it like will if we don't lock down the whole country. We are doing immeasurable and long-term harm to small businesses, like the dragstrip in the OP, out of fear. And there's no question that this has been manipulated for political purposes. On both sides... it's the nature of government.
It's pretty easy to understand where the dragstrip owner is coming from...
This is completely inaccurate and a very dangerous analogy. You are trying to compare annual deaths from other causes to short-term deaths from COVID-19, that is simply not applicable. The deaths from COVID-19 are delayed, and many states aren't even approaching a peak yet. What is more accurate, is to look at the deaths per week compared to the other leading causes of death.
If you look at the data more closely, the deaths per week compared to other leading causes COVID-19 is rapidly approaching #1 cause of death in the United States:
And this is with all the social distancing and "unconstitutional" restrictions in place. Removing or disobeying these guidelines will only increase the rate of deaths per day.
Something worth discussing, is that the virus isn't directly affecting the entire country at the same rate. So regional control using hard data (i.e. by Governers, Mayors, etc.) is the best solution at this time.
So what is the alternative you are proposing? Are you are all arguing to remove these restrictions and let the virus spread, since it "isnt that bad"? Ok, in that case, we get to herd immunity essentially by infecting everyone and letting those are susceptible to death to just die. If so, the mortality rate conservatively is 1.5% (extremely conservative estimate), with the US population of 328.2 million 1.5% of that is 4.923 million. Let's round that down to even just 25% of that, since we have done some distancing so far, thats still 1.23 million deaths. Worth it!
captainawesome said:I'll try to leave the politics out of it, but you have to admit there are ways to have a private track day that has absolutely no more contact than you would have picking up groceries at your local Walmart. Now a full blow drag race with spectators could be a harder nut to crack. Not impossible though.
Yes, but one is pretty essential for people and one is a leisure activity that isn't critical to the wellbeing of the average person. So I'm not sure why this is even a discussion? It isn't critical to the day to day lives of those that could be impacted if the infection spreads through those groups.
engiekev said:Rodan said:AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Apexcarver :
I believe in personal responsibility and safety. I also believe in the rule if law. One common misconception is that the unilateral decrees regarding this virus are laws. These are not laws. They are bureaucratic decrees made using emergency powers.
This.
The Covid outbreak can be taken seriously without destroying our economy and society. Here's some numbers for perspective from John Hopkins University Covid site...
As of today, 0.2% of the US population has tested positive for Covid.
As of today, 0.01% of the US population has died from Covid.
As of today Covid deaths represent approximately 1% of total number of deaths annually in the US.
Obviously, these number will go up with time, but it's simply not going to kill half the population and it's time to stop treating it like will if we don't lock down the whole country. We are doing immeasurable and long-term harm to small businesses, like the dragstrip in the OP, out of fear. And there's no question that this has been manipulated for political purposes. On both sides... it's the nature of government.
It's pretty easy to understand where the dragstrip owner is coming from...
This is completely inaccurate and a very dangerous analogy. You are trying to compare annual deaths from other causes to short-term deaths from COVID-19, that is simply not applicable. The deaths from COVID-19 are delayed, and many states aren't even approaching a peak yet. What is more accurate, is to look at the deaths per week compared to the other leading causes of death.
If you look at the data more closely, the deaths per week compared to other leading causes COVID-19 is rapidly approaching #1 cause of death in the United States:
And this is with all the social distancing and "unconstitutional" restrictions in place. Removing or disobeying these guidelines will only increase the rate of deaths per day.
Something worth discussing, is that the virus isn't directly affecting the entire country at the same rate. So regional control using hard data (i.e. by Governers, Mayors, etc.) is the best solution at this time.
So what is the alternative you are proposing? Are you are all arguing to remove these restrictions and let the virus spread, since it "isnt that bad"? Ok, in that case, we get to herd immunity essentially by infecting everyone and letting those are susceptible to death to just die. If so, the mortality rate conservatively is 1.5% (extremely conservative estimate), with the US population of 328.2 million 1.5% of that is 4.923 million. Let's round that down to even just 25% of that, since we have done some distancing so far, thats still 1.23 million deaths. Worth it!
I have better things to do than get sucked into this silliness.
But either you dont understand the context of the numbers you posted or you are purposefully trying to mislead. You cherry picked one particularly bad week of COVID-19 deaths when the US was at its peak and compared them to other morbidities which CONSISTENTLY produce that number PER WEEK, EVERY YEAR, Do you understand the difference? The COVID number will drop over the next few weeks while all the other numbers will stay the same or increase.
Nice try though.
In reply to Stefan (Forum Supporter) :
Exactly. If this racetrack is allowed to be open, why not everything else non-essential? Bottom line is these guidelines had to be put in place because we cannot trust every business (small or large) to operate safely.
Just have to look at what is happening with megachurches in the south right now to see how this will end up for businesses that decide to disobey this order and do not practice safe operation. If Summit Dragway opens up and cannot contain spectators or racers, would it be worth having deaths of attendees and non-attendees? 1% of 500 specators is 5 people...
dps214 said:z31maniac said:In reply to Patrick (Forum Supporter) :
I'm with you.
I raised an eyebrow when I saw an employee of our local road course post on his personal facebook page they were going to do a surprise HPDE, because everyone could remain far enough from each other in the pits.
I'm not going to be the one to rat them out, but I can't imagine how doing track days could be considered "essential" in any way, shape, or form. I know Remington Park told the OKC SCCA group, they can't have another AutoX until June at the earliest.
Part of the problem there is you're conflating "non-essential" with "unsafe". It's super easy to run a track day without ever having to come within ten feet of another human beng. Is it an essential activity? No. Can it be executed in a way that has effectively zero chance of spreading the virus (and is about an order of magnitude less risky than going grocery shopping right now)? Absolutely. Autocross is another beast entirely that's virtually impossible to properly enforce social distancing. Of course in the case of the track day, if they were doing it without the approval of the relevant state/local government orgs, that's asking for a lot of trouble. But I could pretty easily see it being signed off on. That all said, the norwalk people are absolutely going about this the wrong way and I can only imagine it's going to backfire onthem fairly hard.
I didn't mention safe, just that the governor has shut down non-essential businesses. Hell I would consider going!
What really concerns me if they go forward is public backlash. I can see the general public having the attitude of, "Oh look at these car guys with their money flouting the rules because they can afford to" type of thing.
This topic is locked. No further posts are being accepted.
