So tell me what you know about the Honda S2000

So, I did a bad bad thing this weekend. On a little road trip down to Savannah, I shared driving duties in an SP1 S2000. And I could totally see myself daily driving one of these things. It's an absolute blast to drive, and from what I can find on edmunds, if I were to trade in the Protege5 on one, I could get one without a monster loan. Now, I don't really know a whole lot about them other than 1) it's the only Honda I've driven where I actually went "HOLY E36 M3 VTEC!", 2) handles really well (his car was on stock suspension), and 3) they're fairly comfortable (good enough for a 4.5 hour trip to savannah, then back).

I'm at a point where I don't really NEED to have something practical, and I'd love to pick one of these up. Are there any gotchas I should know about? What is the line of demarcation on SP1 / SP2, what are the actual differences, pros and cons of each? Anything I should avoid year / package wise? Anything to look for? I know his was an open diff, did the AP1s come with an LSD? Any reliability issues?

Thanks!

Andrew

GRM should do a buyer's guide. These cars are cool.

David

I have had an 02 since it was new and let me tell you it is a blast!

They are just about as close to trouble free as you'll ever find in a car.

It is like having 2 cars in one. You have your off VTEC Miata clone (except I get better gas mileage in my S than I do in my Miata) that has just barely more power than a Miata and then there's the Mr. Hyde persona!

Now HE's quite a different best altogether! Think fire breathing Dragon! It feels like the Mr. Hyde persona is too big for the car and he's doing his best HULK impersonation and is literally bursting at the seams. When you hit VTEC the car seems to rise up snarl, especially if you have a CAI.

The really neat thing is that once you get into VTEC there is no reason to get out of it until you are thru with whatever it is you are doing. The gear ratios are excellent and even if you short shift a little you'll still stay in VTEC.

It's not a drag racer, but it is a corner carver deluxe. The local BMW club finally instituted a special class for them because they were tired of S2000s winning all their autocrosses. It made the M people mad.

I have run at Texas Motor Speedway on their Roval (infield track along with the banked oval with a chicane added at the start finish line) along with the Vette club and the Porsche club. Surprisingly a Boxster S and I were the fastest cars there and I know it wasn't my excellent driving skills. The S is sooooo good in the corners that not many (street or non track prepared) cars can hang with it. I would hit the rev limiter in 5th gear just before the chicane and all I'd have to do to get thru the chicane is tap the brakes and drop to 3rd and then off I'd go again. The Covettes on the other hand had to slow down to 40ish. They would only catch me again just before the chicane. Of course they had the advantage on the high oval banking, but I could get so far ahead of them in the infield that they'd catch up and then have to start over again. A new Z06 would have been another story.

I have had Miatae and multiple 93 RX7s and the S has the same tossable feel.

Most S drivers prefer the feel of the AP1 or 2.0 9,000 rpm car. The AP2 or 2.2 8,000ish rpm car just doesn't seem to give you that same rush. Also since the 2.2 has a tranny that is geared lower you are shifting more often than in the earlier models. But the 2.2 CR is the one to buy if you can find it at a good price. The boy racer model has body aerodynamics and suspension tuning that really works. A rival mag did a suspension shoot out and the CR beat all the tuner boys.

Just be sure to get an 02-03 because it comes with real rear glass. The earlier models come with a plastic rear window.

DWNSHFT wrote: GRM should do a buyer's guide. These cars are cool. David

Funny. Guess what's scheduled for the next issue.

I have little first-hand experience with these cars, but the second-hand that I hear is that the F2xC in the S2k is Hondas least reliable motor (which still makes it better than most engines, but just something to be aware of), and that there's something either weak or wonky in the rear subframe of the 2.2L cars.

I'll get more info from the guys I know that race 'em and post up what they say.

I've never heard about anything wrong with the rear subframe of the 2.2 cars. They did soften the rear springs to make it oversteer less because so many FWD guys were buying them and they didn't know how to handle a RWD.

Yeah, the Butte College race team had some issue with it - I should be able to talk to one of those guys today and I'll tell you what issue they had. I'm almost positive they ended up swapping in a 2.0L rear subframe assembly though.

IIRC the subframes are identical. There is a very slight difference in axles to eliminate a potential vibration issue with lowered AP1s

Thanks for the input. I read something a while back about the early cars having the sway-bar mounts or something like that tearing out of the rear subframe, and the fix from honda was to basically seam weld it. I never really pursued it further as I wasn't really interested in them at the time haha.

What year do the AP2s start? I may hit a dealership this weekend to test drive an AP2 to see how I like it compared to the AP1 I drove this weekend, but I think I'll be going for the earlier ones. That car really new how to get the blood pumping.

Any information on the diffs these cars came with?

AP2 is 04+. By 06, I think, they added DBW and changed the VTEC engagement. On the newer cars you almost can't feel the VTEC engage - that's not nearly as much fun.

The sway bar mounts are only with R rubber and not all that common even then.

The diffs are torsen and pretty stout. The only people who seem to have trouble are drag racers. Did I mention these are corner carvers and not drag racers?

They take quite a different launch technique if you want to drag race. Have you ever done a 7,000 rpm clutch dump? That's what it takes so that you don't get a lot of driveline shock &/or start frying the clutch.

LOL I've actually seen it a few times @ Pro-Solos. Not really drag races, but definitely drag launches. And yes, the A-Stock S2ks were doing the full "m4d Vt3c launch y0!"

For the uninitiated: DBW? And any idea how to tell if it's got an open or limited slip diff?

DBW = Drive By Wire

If it's an S2000 they all are limited slip

oh really? Interesting. I was totally getting some inside wheel spin. Maybe they're not terribly aggressive? In either case, that's good to know, thanks :)

Okay, talked to my friend. Turns out the subframe issue they had was curb related, not design related.

However, this was his input, and he said he could write a book on issues with the S2k:

Eventhough it's double A-arm front and rear, the stock geometry has less than 1 degree of camber gain throughout the whole travel. The rear-ends are really wonky, stock spec for toe is over 1/2" in (he thinks it's 9/16"), they had to run almost 3/4" toe in to get rid of the snap oversteer, and that WASN'T causing tire scrub.

He also mentioned that the 2.0L was a better motor than the 2.2L, but didn't get into specifics.

Hope it helps!

that helps a lot thanks.

ReverendDexter wrote: The rear-ends *are* really wonky, stock spec for toe is over 1/2" in (he thinks it's 9/16"), they had to run almost 3/4" toe in to get rid of the snap oversteer, and that WASN'T causing tire scrub.

That explains my buddy telling me the rear chews up rear tires. I could see over a half inch of toe doing that...

Here are the very aggressive "UK" alignment specs for the S2000. "When the S2000 was introduced in Britian a number of British magazines complained about the handling characteristics. In 2001, reportedly Honda UK pounded S2000's round MIRA's test track for several days trying altnernate settings. As far as is known the UK springs and shocks are the sames as US cars up to MY2002. The above settings were published in a UK technical bulletin as an improvement over the original specs, which were the same as the US."

"In Britian the spec’s for early model year’s were revised with a TSB. A UK Tech Bulletin dated 2 Jan 2002 for 1999-2001 model year only, states after thorough evaluation and dynamic testing Honda UK can confirm the optimum steering and suspension geometry settings for the Honda S2000 are: "

Front Castor 6.45° Front Camber -1.0° Front Toe 0.0° Rear Camber -2.0° Rear Toe 0.20° total 0.40°

I don't know where your friend got his figures, but as you can see this is NOWHERE near 1/2" toe.

I don't know about any "snap" oversteer. The only time I have ever had snap oversteer in any car was when my Miata accidentally got aligned with toe OUT instead of toe IN. I have never had any in the S no matter what alignment I've run. Most comments like that have come from the FWD boys who simply don't understand the dynamics of a RWD car.

If you are used to a RWD car you won't have a bit of problem. That much caster makes it a dream to correct for a loose tail end. I find that I can put the power down in the corner a little earlier if I use a little more toe in.

Tire wear is an issue on most of the high performance cars since to be high performance you tend to have more aggressive alignment specs. And another downside is that if you want to keep the performance level then you will need to buy good tires and not the Fuzion specials.

Oh, one big issue with the early S's, the stock tires were oversized for their rated size!

It seems that rated sizes are simply suggestions not actual measurements. If you replace the tires with stock sizes but in a different brand then you would end up with skinnier rear tires and terminal oversteer. Always, always check the actual width of the tires you are buying. On an S that means the aftermarket sizes, depending upon the tire you buy, might be a 225/255 combo instead of the factory 205/225. I bought BFG TAs and even by upsizing to 245s on the rear I ended up with rear tires that were almost 1/2" narrower than the stock 225s. The car was more than a handful.

carguy123 wrote: Tire wear is an issue on most of the high performance cars since to be high performance you tend to have more aggressive alignment specs. And another downside is that if you want to keep the performance level then you will need to buy good tires and not the Fuzion specials.

not sure if that was directed to me, or just as a warning, but FWIW I've got RE-01Rs on the STS2 car and Hankook RS2 Z212s on the Protege5 lol. I'm a believer that the rubber can make or break a car.

So... note to self, put some fatties in the rear.

One more question: what are the stock wheel sizes?

The only thing I know about the S2000's is that they have nearly the same amount of torque as a #2 pencil rolling across a level desk.

carguy, I don't doubt what you're saying, the source of my information worked with these guys:
Butte College Racing Team

Butte College First in Class at Infineon

They've been racing that S2k for a couple years now, so I trust what they have to say regarding issues with these cars. His opinion was to never get an S2k; I'm trying to convince him to register here so he can post up his experience and reasoning, but no luck so far. I wish I could give more detail.

DrBoost wrote: The only thing I know about the S2000's is that they have nearly the same amount of torque as a #2 pencil rolling across a level desk.

So the Miata has the torque of a broken #2 pencil?

Even off VTEC the S2000 outpulls the Miata and once VTEC hits - Holy Sh*t!

carguy123 wrote:

DrBoost wrote: The only thing I know about the S2000's is that they have nearly the same amount of torque as a #2 pencil rolling across a level desk.

So the Miata has the torque of a broken #2 pencil? Even off VTEC the S2000 outpulls the Miata and once VTEC hits - Holy Sh*t!

Well, I didn't say the pencil was broken......... Cummon! 153 lbs. ft. at 7500 rpm?? Sorry, while revving an engine to the stratosphere is cool, I don't want to HAVE to just to get some excitement outta the motor.

Just my opinion....

amaff wrote: One more question: what are the stock wheel sizes?

Stock tire sizes are:

Front = 205/55 X 16 = 7.1” wide (83.5% of rear tire) 25” diameter

Rear = 225/50 X 16 = 8.5” wide (1.197 X the front) 24.8” diameter

I put the front to rear ratios since it is rare to hit those sizes right on the nose so if you use a different size front you've got to use a corresponding size rear or else you change the handling patterns.

AP1 (00-03) sizes 5 x 114.3 bolt pattern Fronts 16x6.5 = +55mm Rears 16x7.5 = +65mm

I'm running Kinesis k58 - 18x7.5 front 53mm offset and 18x9.5 73mm offset

And Dr. Boost, once you've tried it you'll never go back to a mere 6,000 rpm again. It is soooo nice to be able to extend your rev range. The wail alone is worth the price of admission!

Dr. Boost. Peak torque might be at 7500, but that doesn't mean its substantially less at 3000.

VTEC.net did a dyno of a 2004 S2000 and while the peak torque is 159 @7800rpm, at 2500 rpm, its a respectable 138. The S2000's torque curve is pretty flat

http://vtec.net/articles/article-image?image=171514/04s2kdyno.gif

I had a 2005 S2000 for about a year. That's the AP2, and from what I understand, there were improvements made to the NVH - one of my good friends spent a lot of time in an AP1 and remarked that there was much less road/wind noise in my car. I also later drove an AP1 and would agree, though the car I drove had seen better days.

Over the year I had it, I grew to appreciate the car - it has enough power to be entertaining, and hitting even 8K rpm (the rev limit of the AP2 engine) with the full-blown wail of VTEC is a unique automotive experience. The AP2 also makes a bit more torque down low, and it's really noticeable in the 3K rpm range - the car feels very peppy. That said, there's a dead spot around 4-6K rpm. If you come out of a corner in a gear one higher than you should be, it seems like the world stops for a minute while the car tries to catch up. Stay in VTEC, though, and you're fine.

As for common "issues," I never experienced "snap" oversteer in the car. It's very easy to kick the tail out, and very easy to control. It makes u-turns on deserted roads a lot more fun, as you can set the tail out as much as you want and catch it easily. I also never experienced the "bump steer" that so many forum people complain about, though I never slammed the car either.

As for forums, there's some good info out there, but many people prefer to discuss which tire protectant they use vs. track time. There's also a racing forum on s2ki with some pretty good info, though a lot of those guys are on Moton/JRZ 4-6K suspensions and are relatively intolerant of newbie questions.

Overall, they're great cars, reliable and good on gas. I gave mine up for a newer 3 Series because I needed room and I wanted a bit more usable power band. I'd totally DD one again, but if I had to buy another, I'd get a high-mileage AP1 and use it solely as a fun/weekend car. The lack of torque is noticeable and can be irritating if driven on a daily basis.

The "lack of torque" is no more noticeable in an S than in the list favorite the Miata. Off VTEC they drive so similarly as to be erie.