So whos is it then?

Interesting story on NPR... Story of a Ferrari 375 being stolen from Ohio...

An Ohio judge could decide as early as Thursday whether a Belgian race car driver and collector has any rights to one of the world's rarest of race cars or whether it belongs to a Cincinnati woman whose father first bought it in the 1950s. Right now, collector Jacques Swaters has possession of the 1954 Ferrari 375 Plus — which could be worth as much as $15 million. But Karl Kleve's family has the title and spare parts to it in Cincinnati. Swaters, 84, says he restored it from a burned-out shell. It's now a shiny red one-seat convertible with lots of chrome. "Oh, I've done a terrific job on the car," he said. "We've been working for many, many years to restore the car. The company made only six of them, and just four of them are thought to still exist. In its time, the Ferrari 375 Plus was the fastest car on the track. Kleve's daughter, Kristi Kleve Lawson, says the car was stored outdoors in a Cincinnati lot with a hundred other old cars. She says her dad knew the car was valuable when he bought it in 1958 for $25,000. Jacques Swaters looks over the shell of the car when he bought it in 1990. "He collected Duesenbergs; he collected Rolls-Royces. I know he had at least a dozen," she says. In 1988, Kleve discovered the Ferrari was stolen. Two Cincinnati men were later convicted of the crime, but the car had disappeared. Lawson says her dad searched for it for years, eventually tracking it down in Belgium. This is where the case gets a little more complicated. Lawson says Interpol got involved and convinced Belgium authorities that the car was stolen. She says it was eventually released to Swaters. But Swaters tells a different story: He says in 1990 a trader sold it to him for $100,000. "I was very interested because it was a very famous car," he says, "and then a little later I learned the car had been stolen, so I charged a lawyer to negotiate with the owner to make a settlement." Swaters says he paid Kleve more than $600,000 for the car, and that Kleve cashed the check. Kleve's daughter says her father never received any money, and if Swaters has a canceled check, her dad's signature must have been forged. She says finding the car had become an obsession for him. "This was his biggest project," she says. "By the time he passed away, he said this was the greatest auto theft that had ever occurred." The Ferrari following extensive restoration. Enlarge Courtesy of Michael Hirschfeld Lawson's attorney Daniel Randolph says Swaters' lawsuit, which accuses Lawson of failing to transfer the title to him, should be dismissed. "We think it's not only unfair; we think it's a case of a person who's alleged to have millions and millions of dollars taking an anvil and trying to go after a Hamilton County resident," he says. "Kristi works two jobs to help her family continue to function as a family." Cincinnati judge Norbert Nadel will decide whether the statute of limitations has run out in the case and if this very famous and valuable car must be returned to Ohio.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129138503&ps=cprs

Document it.Sell it.Split the proceeds.

Doesn't seem it would be too difficult to determine if a $600,000 check had been cashed. Not exactly a sum that a bank wouldn't have a record of, lol...

I was just about to post this! I heard the story on my way to work yesterday morning.

Hmmm. Dad sells car for $600,000 blows wad and daughter gets nothing. Now after dear ol' dad is dead she finds title and goes for a cash grab.

Sounds fishy to me.

This story has had various permutations for years and years. Look for more years of court battles--and lots of bilable hours.

HHmmmmm, this story comes out, again, only a week before the mega-buck auctions and interest in them at Monterey??

irish44j wrote: Doesn't seem it would be too difficult to determine if a $600,000 check had been cashed. Not exactly a sum that a bank wouldn't have a record of, lol...

But who cashed the check? ... maybe the lawyer hired to negotiate the deal or, as said, dear old popsie.

This story sounds remarkably like the Daytona coupe scenario.

But Swaters tells a different story: He says in 1990 a trader sold it to him for $100,000. "I was very interested because it was a very famous car," he says, "and then a little later I learned the car had been stolen, so I charged a lawyer to negotiate with the owner to make a settlement." Swaters says he paid Kleve more than $600,000 for the car, and that Kleve cashed the check.

There should be an easy 20 year old paper trail.

I'll just take it off their hands for free - problemo solved.

spitfirebill wrote:

irish44j wrote: Doesn't seem it would be too difficult to determine if a $600,000 check had been cashed. Not exactly a sum that a bank wouldn't have a record of, lol...

But who cashed the check? ... maybe the lawyer hired to negotiate the deal or, as said, dear old popsie. This story sounds remarkably like the Daytona coupe scenario.

An agreement like this should have a paper trail. If Swaters presents signed agreement, car is his. If not, car is in limbo (Kleve has title, but little claim to car in its current condition, Swaters has a stolen car, but may have already negotiated settlement, if not, then still only partially owes Kleve depending on the paperwork Belgium provided). At this point, its just another legal battle and the morality of the situation is probably pretty complex at this point.

in answer to your question.. It's mine.. somehow

I'm assuming the Swaters can document all of the parts he has had made or bought from others to restore the car from a burned out shell to its present state. Does he get to remove and keep all of those parts and just return a shell to the Ohio family if he loses?

It doesn't look like there was much left of the car when he started, so I don't think he has much beyond a body/frame that would have originally belonged to Kleve. It would be really interesting if he proved that they actually replaced pretty much the entire car and really only kept the VIN plate from the original frame.

Bob

But that VIN plate is the most valuable part of an old Ferrari.

Kleve was an eccentric genius in Cincy. One of his most annoying eccentricities was buying cars and other stuff (including the fuselage of a large airplane), then parking them on his various vacant lots around town. This included a few Roll Royces, and a good number of high end American cars. He would literally buy stuff, then drive it into the grass on his property, and let it rot. You can imagine the vermin that attracted. I had friends who lived near one of his properties. They had trouble with rats and snakes, including having a rat come up out of the toilet at least once.

Knowing the way the old guy was, I buy the story that it was stolen. He wasn't willing to sell any of his treasures, content to let them rot. After he died, the family ended up in a legal battle with the county over the mess. Eventally, everything worth selling was dragged to a construction site where there used to be a drive-in theater, and sold. IIRC, the county got the proceeds in exchange for dropping any claims agains the Kleve estate. So, the family probably wouldn't have seen any cash from the car even if it hadn't been stolen. Seems like sour grapes to me.

spitfirebill wrote: This story sounds remarkably like the Daytona coupe scenario.

My thoughts exactly.

OTOH, I guess in the world of vintage exotica, it's not uncommon for one VIN to have two or three cars. One car gets severely damaged and rebuilt, and a second car gets built around the repaired cast-off pieces, since everything is handbuilt anyway.

So, I guess my point is, I wonder if this car's been "grafted" like that.

Datsun1500 wrote:

GregTivo wrote: If Swaters presents signed agreement, car is his. If not, car is in limbo (Kleve has title, but little claim to car in its current condition,

It does not matter what condition it was in when stolen. If you fix up a stolen car, it is at your own risk. It was never yours to fix. If you pay to put an addition on your neighbors house when he is on vacation, it is your problem, he does not owe you a dime. I like the "I found out it was stolen and hired a lawyer to negotiate...." If it was me there are no negotiations, return my car. This should be easy to solve, there is a $600K transaction or there is not..

I doubt the situation is as simple as you claim. It all depends on what he did to try and ascertain a legal claim over the vehicle before he started the restoration. If he gained the Belgium equivalent of a title before he began the process of restoration, international agreements come into a effect and he does not have to assume total liability. This is regardless of whether there was a 600k transaction or not. The $600k payment just solidifies the claim if it occurred (of course lying about paying out 600k would be a fraudulent claim, which has its own penalties).

I volunteer to hold on to the car and keep it exercised while this goes throught he courts. It's the least I can do.

eastsidemav wrote: Kleve was an eccentric genius in Cincy. One of his most annoying eccentricities was buying cars and other stuff (including the fuselage of a large airplane), then parking them on his various vacant lots around town. This included a few Roll Royces, and a good number of high end American cars. He would literally buy stuff, then drive it into the grass on his property, and let it rot.

I am failing to recognize his geniusness

Datsun1500 wrote: The original article says 2 men were convicted of stealing the car. This means the guy that has it now bought stolen merchandise. It does not matter if he knew it was stolen, he has to return it.

I don't think it's that simple anymore. As posted before there is now international laws in play. But to me it does sound like he must have paid for the car.

The story says that she contacted Interpol and they contacted Belgium authorities and the car was eventually released to the new guy. To me that sounds like they might have seized it until it was worked out, which it must have been to their satisfaction in order for the car to be released to him.

Now she wants a US judge to over rule the findings of a Interpol investigation and order the car returned to her despite any evidence which might be presented as she claims it is fake. I don't see that happening.

I also can't see where the opinion of a US judge will have much bearing over a man in Belgium. Even if she did win I don't ever see her getting the car or any cash. He would just have to have a Belgian court rule in his favor. The which court is right?

Rusnak_322 wrote: I am failing to recognize his geniusness

He had several patents, I'm not entirely sure on what. I assume the royalties are what allowed him to afford to keep accumulating stuff.

There is a pretty good discussion over on Ferrari Chat that includes the daughters partner in the case.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=114840

It's 8 pages long and sheds a lot more info than this article.

Ahh, but he (and his partner) did. According the daughters partner in the case Swaters produced evidence that there was 2 checks written out. One for 225k written out to Kleve's partner/broker and another written out to Kleve AND his partner/broker.

They contend that these checks are basically forgeries and never cleared any bank.

Reading the other thread shed a lot more light on this case. it also raises more questions.

One last comment on this too and I'm done. No matter who actually own the car, it getting stolen was probably the best thing for it.

Considering that the original owner admitted to dismantling it and then left it outside to rot when he knew the rarity of it.

Now I'm sure that might not be the the PC argument, but if that car had not been stolen there would probably only be 3 left instead of 4.

One important thing to keep in mind about the thread over on the Ferrari board is that someone who is making a claim to the car is posting in there. It's like hearing one side of the courtroom arguments without the other side present and a lot of folks seem to be nodding along like there's nothing wrong with it.

I don't know that "getting stolen was probably the best thing for it." It would have stayed abandoned on some overgrown lot and probably put up for auction as an Alfa parts car. Even if it had gone under the gavel as a Ferrari, someone would have paid a very minor fortune for a free-and-clear pile of junk. Far, far better than this saga.

We will cut the car down the middle and share it equally!