Speeding Tickets in PA - Advice Needed

Andy Neuman wrote: I had a friend who was pulled over 5-10 times from age 18-23 and plead not guilty every time. Each time he would go into court talk to the officer before hand and all but one time had it reduced to a non points ticket. The time he was clocked going 83 in a 40 it was reduced to 15 over. All in PA.

This is right in my experience. One time I got a ticket and planned to go to court. I got the days screwed up and showed up on tuesday, but it was done Monday and already over. They had lowered it for me to 10 over or somthing like that from about 25 over than that. I still got a coupletter of points. But less and a lower fine. I imagine they would have been even better to work with had I shown up the right day. They just want the money honestly

In reply to MDJeepGuy:

You are correct. My son went through this. Thus far, in 37 years of driving, no speeding tickets, yet.

If you do decide to go to court, dress nicely, and respect the court and it's workers at all times. You don't need to wear a tuxedo, but a collared shirt, or a dress shirt with a tie and jacket are appropriate. Do NOT wear a Hooters T-Shirt and ripped jeans. Dressing nicely shows respect for the court, and it makes you stand out from the masses that pass in front of the judge all day.

Be respectful, courteous and look clean cut----- these will all help your chances of getting a reduced penalty.

Tyler H wrote: I agree with Curt, only because everyone needs the experience at least once. They don't care about the morality of teaching you a lesson, or due process. It's just a money game, and all about the quickest way to get your processed through and collect. The judge is just as likely to be more pissed because you're there. I went to try defend one once...watched the two traffic lawyers in town get called up first with a ream of cases. They quietly conversed over in the corner with the judge and got a dispositions on all of them. Then the judge worked through the rest of the dregs of society (me in my coat and tie,) and promptly reamed us all. You don't appear if you have a lawyer for court. It will probably cost you about $100 for them to show up, represent you, and get it reduced to 'equipment calibration/malfunction.' The traffic court lawyers have a relationship with everyone in the room..they're there at least once a week doing the same thing, over and over. They will predict, with great accuracy, what your outcome will be. Then they will go to court for you and send you a letter with the outcome.

Exactly.

I got speeding/reckless driving ticket that I had to pay over a $1K for and took a E36 M3 load of points on my license for. My friend, got the same tickets (same incident) and went before a judge because he couldn't afford the fines outright. Did all the "right things" (supposedly)and all that. Same charges and he got 12 months probation (or until the fines were paid off), community service and lost his license. They even were kind enough to pop him with a surprise drug test during his probation period (that he had to pay for). YMMV.

^^^ Since you guys have had such bad experiences getting reamed for serious traffic offenses, I can't understand why you'd argue "just pay the fine" or "just go to court without a lawyer." That's just not in your best interests.

If you can eat the fine, points, and penalties be my guest. But if you hire a local traffic attorney, chances are you'll end up in much better shape. This is what they do for a living.

When tickets have been handed to me, I've been lucky enough to only get slap on the wrist tickets. So I pay without question.

Everyone has seen my totaled Cavalier on here, a traffic lane ticket and a towing bill were a gift compared to what should have been handed out.

The speeding ticket I got in CA was written out at 18 over, while I was clocked at over 20 over. 20 over out there is automatic suspension and could be considered for jail time. Sometimes you just have to pay it and move on.

Here's the thing: the cop told the OP to plead not guilty, and that he'd help him out if he did.

90% probability that the cop will talk to him before the hearing, and he'll offer to reduce the charge to 3111 (failure to obey traffic control devices) as long as he pleads guilty. He then pleads guilty to that, and pays a $150 fine with no points. The trooper probably offered that because he was happy that the OP wasn't drunk.

last 2 'court dates' I had for tickets in Michigan were long lines of people waiting to see a court employee. If your record was good, you got a no points ticket for "double parking". Pay $150 and be on your way.

oldtin wrote: my theory: cops pick the court day they are available to be there. Elect the court day, then request a change of the date. No cop present it gets tossed. Follow advice on polite and if contested by cop anyway ask for reduction to no points plea.

I think this depends on the district. Where I live, the courts set the date, not the issuing officer. However, working in EMS I work alongside a lot of cops and they tell me that when they go to court that is considered their "tour of duty" of their shift. So whether they have one ticket or 12, once those cases are heard, they get to go home. Ergo, most cops show up barring some unforeseen circumstance.

Any advice coming from outside the state of PA should be ignored. Our processes here are much different than most states. We have district justices for traffic fines and not 'court' in the classic sense. The local DJ guaranteed is on happy, beer-drinking-after-work friends with every policeman or trooper that works in their district. They will 'act' the proper part in the hearing but trust me, behind closed doors they are all pals.

If this trooper is being honest and is willing to work with you it is a rare occurrence. I have fought several State Police issued citations over the years and lost every single time. Didn't matter if I was right or they made a mistake; the buddy system trumped all. Very educational but not helpful to my driving record.

You MUST plead not guilty to get a hearing and do any negotiation. As someone else noted, you really have nothing to lose by pleading NG and going to the local DJ court. Arrive early and have that negotiation chat with the Trooper. Yeah, you can try changing the date and hope he doesn't show so it gets dismissed but this has NEVER happened to me, and I've tried it each time including the instance where there were TWO Troopers who had to be there. Remember, everyone is a buddy except you who will be the outsider.

Lawyer? I had a friend with a horrid driving record who used an attorney to keep his license. It was expensive but it worked. Here again, you need a guy who regularly goes to that particular DJ office and is known (and hopefully liked) by the DJ. If he's some out of town guy don't expect to get too far. For a $300 ticket I'm probably not hiring an attorney as the cost/benefit ratio isn't going to be great.

You can file for discovery of the radar calibration in advance but I've found the Trooper will just bring a copy with him to the hearing which doesn't really give you time to study it. Again, never been lucky enough to have one that wasn't properly calibrated in the required time frame. PASP are not amateurs.

I will say this; even when I've lost it has always been tremendously educational. I did make one Trooper look a bit stupid once and the DJ actually praised me on my preparation and knowledge...before he found me guilty.

It's a money racket just like has been posted above. Don't pay a lawyer - it's a racket for them too. Plead not guilty. Show up early and find the officer / prosecutor. Ask politely if you can plead guilty to a non-moving violation because you are a CDL... blah blah blah (they DGAF, but you need a conversation piece). This is what they want because it keeps the money local rather than having to share it with the state. That is what he meant by "help you out". What he really meant to say was "help the magisterial district to keep more of your money" by threatening you with a more serious crime and insurance bills such that you are happy to part with $275 to make it go away. This is what we call corruption. Like giving the cops in Cancun $5 US to leave you alone rather than drag you off to jail on trumped up DUI charges every other city block.

Good luck!

In reply to Huckleberry:

Thanks. I'll be mailing in my "plead not guilty" today and we'll see how it goes.

Only thing I'm wondering is if since it was a state trooper the pulled me over is if the whole money racket to keep the money local won't apply as much.

Might be worth the time to go down there on a different day, watch a few proceedings and see what the feel of the court is. You might find a lawyer that has a good relationship with the Judge that way. Can also see what is happening in other cases and what your chances are for getting out of points.

AWSX1686 wrote: In reply to Huckleberry: Thanks. I'll be mailing in my "plead not guilty" today and we'll see how it goes. Only thing I'm wondering is if since it was a state trooper the pulled me over is if the whole money racket to keep the money local won't apply as much.

I got popped by a NJ trooper a few years back and it was the same nonsense. It cost me $650 to get out of a $200 ticket because I did spring for an attorney. All he did was walk up and shake hands with the prosecutor before the thing started. Literally a 10 second dialog. (hence my advice to avoid the lawyer).

Still - if you are worried about the negotiations I'll retract that part of the advice because you didn't say what the speed was. If you were 60 over in a school zone handshake clemency might not be so easy to get as 20 over on the interstate.

In reply to Huckleberry:

That 10s dialogue is exactly the value the lawyer provides, though. Agreed 100% the whole system is a completely corrupt racket run by an old boys club, gotta think of the lawyer as your "guest ticket" into that club. The value proposition is when your offense is serious enough that he can save you enough to almost break even on his services, while hopefully saving you most or all of the points. State gets their money, lawyer gets his, you walk away thinking "well, could have been worse at least."

Huckleberry wrote:

AWSX1686 wrote: In reply to Huckleberry: Thanks. I'll be mailing in my "plead not guilty" today and we'll see how it goes. Only thing I'm wondering is if since it was a state trooper the pulled me over is if the whole money racket to keep the money local won't apply as much.

I got popped by a NJ trooper a few years back and it was the same nonsense. It cost me $650 to get out of a $200 ticket because I did spring for an attorney. All he did was walk up and shake hands with the prosecutor before the thing started. Literally a 10 second dialog. (hence my advice to avoid the lawyer). Still - if you are worried about the negotiations I'll retract that part of the advice because you didn't say what the speed was. If you were 60 over in a school zone handshake clemency might not be so easy to get as 20 over on the interstate.

No school zone, No active work zone. It was on a rural highway with a 45 MPH speed limit.

In reply to Furious_E:

Yeah, I'm still debating on the lawyer part. A good friend of mine had 3 or 4 tickets from a stupid single car accident and was able to get out of it with no points, just paying the fines. He said he didn't have a lawyer.

30 over and I would definitely hire one, 25 over I'd think pretty hard about it, 20 over I'd still consider it.

Basing this on Penndot's point system. Convicted of 30 over and you automatically get a hearing on a potential suspension, same for a cumulative total of 6 or more points (11 I think is automatic suspension.) 25+ over the limit is 5 points, which means ANYTHING that could potentially happen over the next year puts you over that threshold, and trust me, you don't wanna be living on the edge of that cliff. You can take the special points exam (basically a very slightly harder version of the written portion of your driver's license exam) and immediately get 5 points knocked off, avoiding the suspension, but that's a one time ever deal. I unfortunately wasted mine on extremely bad advice from a DJ.

Which brings up another point - don't take either the cop or the DJ at their word. The trooper may have been feeling helpful the day he pulled you over, but will he feel the same in court if the guy before you is a total prick? Promises ain't worth E36 M3.

AWSX1686 wrote: No school zone, No active work zone. It was on a rural highway with a 45 MPH speed limit.

If you want to be prepared to fight the case if the Statey doesn't deal, you could go back to the scene of the (victimless) crime and check to make sure the "45" signs are at most a half mile apart, and that the trooper had a quarter mile to clock you.

A buddy of mine got off (in PA) because the last 40 MPH sign was a mile and a half (and several intersections) back from where the speed trap was.

I'm still all about the asking for a continuance angle, too. The magistrate will usually grant you one (but only one), and your excuse can be as simple as "I have to work". It messed with the scheduling, because they do try to schedule the trooper to do multiple cases on the same day. The magistrate will probably reschedule for a more random day. If nothing else, it wastes more of everyone's time. I subscribe to the idea that, if everyone made crappy traffic stops a huge pain in the ass for magistrates, they would get annoyed and tell the cops to lay off. Also, time is money, so if you can take up more of the magistrate's (staff's) time, they get less benefit from the fine.

In reply to RevRico:

I've gotten the "Failure to obey a traffic control device" reduction at the time of ticketing. At that point, it was a just pay the fine moment.

"Exceeding Maximum Speed" is just exceeding the speed limit. In Governmentese. http://www.dot.state.pa.us/Public/DVSPubsForms/BDL/BDL%20Fact%20Sheets/fs-ps.pdf

If he didn't put the MPH pver on the ticket, then that's where he will likely offer leeway. 26-30 over is 5 points. 16-25 is 4 11-15 is 3 6-10 is 2

AWSX1686 wrote: Only thing I'm wondering is if since it was a state trooper the pulled me over is if the whole money racket to keep the money local won't apply as much.

Pretty sure that's no different since it's being heard at the MDJ level. They have a LOT of discretion.

GSmith wrote: In reply to RevRico: I've gotten the "Failure to obey a traffic control device" reduction at the time of ticketing. At that point, it was a just pay the fine moment. "Exceeding Maximum Speed" is just exceeding the speed limit. In Governmentese. http://www.dot.state.pa.us/Public/DVSPubsForms/BDL/BDL%20Fact%20Sheets/fs-ps.pdf If he didn't put the MPH pver on the ticket, then that's where he will likely offer leeway. 26-30 over is 5 points. 16-25 is 4 11-15 is 3 6-10 is 2

While it didn't say "Exceeding Maximum Speed by xxMPH", below it stated the clocked speed and the speed limit.

snailmont5oh wrote:

AWSX1686 wrote: No school zone, No active work zone. It was on a rural highway with a 45 MPH speed limit.

If you want to be prepared to fight the case if the Statey doesn't deal, you could go back to the scene of the (victimless) crime and check to make sure the "45" signs are *at most* a half mile apart, and that the trooper had a quarter mile to clock you. A buddy of mine got off (in PA) because the last 40 MPH sign was a mile and a half (and several intersections) back from where the speed trap was. I'm still all about the asking for a continuance angle, too. The magistrate will usually grant you one (but only one), and your excuse can be as simple as "I have to work". It messed with the scheduling, because they do try to schedule the trooper to do multiple cases on the same day. The magistrate will probably reschedule for a more random day. If nothing else, it wastes more of everyone's time. I subscribe to the idea that, if everyone made crappy traffic stops a huge pain in the ass for magistrates, they would get annoyed and tell the cops to lay off. Also, time is money, so if you can take up more of the magistrate's (staff's) time, they get less benefit from the fine.

By continuance you mean asking for a different court date correct? So as to possibly catch the officer on a day he can't make it, which would drop the case? I'm debating on that one too. I don't really want to piss anyone off by rescheduling as a strategy.

In reply to Furious_E:

Still debating on a lawyer. I'm still not convinced though. From what I can tell, even if I go to court and they don't help me out, it looks like I pay the fine and have points on my licence. Not the scenario I want, but I could make do with it, and there's always the chance that I could catch the cop/judge on a good day or a good note and get off with a lighter ruling.

Talking about this must be bad luck. One of my drivers picked up a ticket today. Probably will hire a lawyer for this one as I don't want anyone to have to pay for this one.