‘Sport Sedan’ for 15k?

P3PPY said:

In reply to buzzboy :

Guy I've rallycrossed with has a stable of CTSs in various states of modification that he runs. Says the 6 likes to break things when the timing chain stretches from use, but they're amazingly stout cars. He showed me a pic of the amount of air he got in one and kept driving and I now expect I'll own one some day. 

CTSs are big and heavy.

They also throw P0016 before the chains get bad enough to damage anything, and I have found that at least with the later engines that chain life is directly related to how often the oil is changed and if the operator bothers to check it every so often, instead of running it perpetually 2-3 quarts low.

RWD models seem the most prone to abuse. AWD models have clutch type limited slips in the rear, too.

I am recently enamored with the idea of a 135i but these are very much not four door cars.

E46 330i, 5-speed sport package.  $10-12K should buy a VERY nice one.  I very much regret selling mine.  ZHP is overrated in my opinion, well overpriced/valued.

Or... E91 (estate) manual sport package RWD but that's a pretty tiny needle in a haystack.

Decent dampers, bigger front bar and square wheel setup.  Soup.

Sorry, I totally didn't see those recommendations for the e90. How are the e90's in regards to maintenance compared to the older 3's? Also, how are they around an autocross course? 

I've never autox'd my 128i (it's the same platform as the E90), but I suspect it won't be as nimble as something substantially lighter, like an E30 or an NC. It feels as if it would be more suited to a track, or as a fast road car (how I use mine). Maintenance isn't terrible - there are a few known issues, and some jobs are less than pleasant (the electric water pump comes to mind), but basic maintenance work is pretty simple, and the suggested suspension upgrades are downright easy.

Don't forget that the 318ti hatch exists. It's a two door but super practical, and I think the more basic interior holds up better.

And I couldn't help but notice there is an E36 318i sedan for sale on this forum right now.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

z31maniac said:

I didn't realize the E46 ZHP had engine issues? It's like 100 less HP and doesn't rev as high as the S54 in the E46 M3.

It's no different than the normal 330 other than tune, no? I w0uldn't jump to an E36/46 if you want a fun/tossable 4dr unless you find a 4dr E36 M3. Given the above choices I probably would find a clean E30 325i and enjoy a little vintage. I liked my E46 325i sport pkg but as a daily. If I was looking for an "extra" car I would look for something a little more special.

Cams, tune, different rear differential ratio. And then the suspension differences. 

I've owned an E36 M3 and an E30 325i. The thing that kills the E30 for me is the glacial steering. I liked mine but I'd go for an E46 for the steering alone. I know you can do a Z3 rack swap but I've heard issues and I've driven Z3s, that steering isn't exactly fast either.

I haven't driven an E46 in 20 years but my guess is the steering is faster. I loved the 128i I drove, just saying.

For something on the different side, there is the Infinity G37 Sedan out there. Seeing lots of them out there for 10K or under for around a 2013. The platform has plenty of mods, and if you open up the exhaust you can be the bane of all of your neighbors. I bet you could manual swap it if you wanted as well. 

I immediately think of the BMW E90 sedan. The N52 is considered one of the most reliable drivetrains in awhile and its the last of the hydraulic steering/naturally aspirated 3 series. You'll definitely need to modify it to get it worthy of auto-x/track though.

In reply to CyberEric :

E36/E46 rack fits e30 well as well. Transforms the e30, easy to fit. 
E36 and newer are all much more refined/quieter on the road, have better (but not more fun)?rear suspension . 
I'm working on an e30 with a goal to make it my daily, but that would come much more easily with an e46.

I know they are not $15k but I also know they are not 25+ years old like some recommendations. That old might be a different definition of reliable.  

Have used Genesis G70 gotten down to the $20k range yet?

Previous GRM chatter

2.0t, M6 speed, rwd

$23.8k w/47k

Couldn't think of anything RWD, but you have the WRX, Focus ST, Audi S4, G37, Pontiac G8 maybe?

honestly, under $15k and rwd I can't think of anything except bmw.

In reply to Nathan JansenvanDoorn :

If you can swap an E46 rack that might help, the E36 rack is pretty damn slow too. Not sure if the E46 rack is any faster, that could help. 
 

The other thing for me is the E30 rear suspension you mention. The E36 felt so much more stable through transitions. I don't care for the old design in the E30.
 

The E30 and E36 are so old, and so German, they just don't seem like daily drivers to me. E90 would be my choice if I had to have RWD for 15k. I might sniff the Infiniti just to avoid BMW BS. The E90 I drove was great, until it started smoking. Popped the hood and the valve cover gasket was spitting oil like a mud slinger. Crazy. This was not high miles either.

CyberEric said:

In reply to Nathan JansenvanDoorn :

If you can swap an E46 rack that might help, the E36 rack is pretty damn slow too. Not sure if the E46 rack is any faster, that could help. 
 

The other thing for me is the E30 rear suspension you mention. The E36 felt so much more stable through transitions. I don't care for the old design in the E30.
 

The E30 and E36 are so old, and so German, they just don't seem like daily drivers to me. E90 would be my choice if I had to have RWD for 15k. I might sniff the Infiniti just to avoid BMW BS. The E90 I drove was great, until it started smoking. Popped the hood and the valve cover gasket was spitting oil like a mud slinger. Crazy. This was not high miles either.

Shortly after buying my N52 128i, I pitched it around a corner and saw smoke... I pulled over and saw the oil dripping onto the exhaust manifold and saw it pooled up on the valve cover. I immediately thought it was the valve cover gasket, until I really started to trace it a while later... turns out, it was the oil cap gasket. $5 for a new cap and 2 minutes of my time= problem solved. 
 

I know the N52 can leak from the valve cover and it's a real PITA to swap, but in my case it was a very cheap, simple fix. 

In reply to roninsoldier83 :

They leak from a few places, but the most problematic one is the oil filter housing gasket. It drips on the accessory belt, and if it goes on long enough it will fail, often slipping behind the crank pulley and getting sucked into the engine. Fortunately, anyone who's paying attention will see it long before it gets anywhere near that bad. I just changed mine - only takes about half an hour or so if you know the tricks.

Oh, and the manual cars get a steel oil pan. If you live in the rust belt, check it - mine developed a pinhole. Fortunately again, the aluminum pan from the automatics fits with only minor modification.

What does a Lexus IS go for these days? 

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

P3PPY said:

In reply to buzzboy :

Guy I've rallycrossed with has a stable of CTSs in various states of modification that he runs. Says the 6 likes to break things when the timing chain stretches from use, but they're amazingly stout cars. He showed me a pic of the amount of air he got in one and kept driving and I now expect I'll own one some day. 

CTSs are big and heavy.

Depends on what you're comparing it to, I suppose. Quick search says it's not that much different than some of the options suggested.

e46 330i = 3,100ish#, 228hp, 221 torque

e90 330i = 3,428#, 254hp, 221 tork

CTS Sport = 3,509#, 255hp, 252 tork

Beside the point of course, as the OP is looking for a BMW

03-06 E55 AMG All day every day.  Forget the need for a manual.  Get a Eurocharged ECU and TCU tune and have at it.  Throw a belt wrap kit, a fixed pulley, a few other bits and bops, and its one heck of a sports car in a gray 4 door box.

I feel like F30s are so cheap now they should be considered too. No experience with them but they are on my radar. I rented one Turo recently, the steering was fine, which seems to be one big internet complaint. 

In reply to GTwannaB :

I wonder if F30s are cheap for a reason... I've heard a few with noisy timing chains/tensioners.  Not sure what the latest is on them. Would love to be wrong - they drive pretty well.  I had an F20 m135i.  It was very fast, but a bit numb.  

A rule of thumb that has served me reasonably well: BMW makes great N/A inline 6s.  They have well documented trouble spots (valve cover/oil filter housing gasket/cooling system), but otherwise seem to go forever.  I have an N52 in my 530 that is quite lovely, and the bores in the M50 in my e30 looked like new (mileage unknown, >30 year old engine)
Everything else seems to be a bit more problematic (timing chains on 4s, higher maintenance on 8s and 10s etc).  

John Welsh said:

I know they are not $15k but I also know they are not 25+ years old like some recommendations. That old might be a different definition of reliable.  

Have used Genesis G70 gotten down to the $20k range yet?

Previous GRM chatter

2.0t, M6 speed, rwd

$23.8k w/47k

I didn't realize these existed with a manual. That's a sharp car. 

The other missing car from the list:

Infiniti G35/G37/Qwhateverthehell sedan with a stick.

They're rare, but out there.  

I daily drive an M3/4/5. Mine is nearing 242k miles. Back seat was perfect and I sourced a set of near perfect fronts as the ones in the car were rough. The commonly talked about issues with the interior are definitely real in my opinion. The clips on the A and C pillar covers break off and the covers end up hanging down. The passenger C-pillar cover is held in place by my daughter's car seat. Headliner is failing at the rear window and I actually just recently pulled the liner off the sunroof panel. 

I've been slowly making mine nicer since I got it about 1.5 years ago but I very much enjoy driving it even with the issues it still has. 

That said, I've been seriously considering letting it go and moving to a CT4 Blackwing...

In reply to 93gsxturbo :

I know how to manual swap those lol. 

I wonder how fun a manual swapped c55 would be. 

E39s are a big bigger and heavier than some of the other options mentioned (not much more than a CTS though), but still RWD and available with a manual.  And although they're not as nimble as some of the smaller / lighter options, they're still pretty capable and not too hard to keep reliable.