Sports hybrid, where art thou?

Turbo AWD was the new hotness when the Evo and WRX arrived. A decade later, it's basically the standard drivetrain configuration.

Hybrids similarly started as weird niche vehicles, now many automakers sell them.

And then we have the million dollar hybrid hypercars. P1, LaFerrari, 918.

Where are the affordable hybrids oriented towards fun? I know the Evo and WRX were rumored to do this at some point. CRZ was an attempt, kinda.

I mean, battery low and centered to avoid screwing up the dynamics. Engine power to one axle and motors for the other. Maybe big enough battery so you can run errands around town on battery power only. Put a bigger turbo on an existing turbo motor and use the motor to fill in the bottom end. I'm a stick RWD kinda guy but it just feels like the market is missing something obvious.

Not really a hybrid, but how about a Tesla Roadster? Dunno how much those go for these days. Wonder if the batteries have held up?

edit - ouch, they are still pretty pricey. The ones within 200 miles of Atlanta start around $60K+

The CRZ was supposed to be a sporty hybrid, but it didn't do either of those things particularly well. Perhaps that's why no one bought it.

Or maybe there really isn't any market for a sporty hybrid.

In reply to EvanR:

I'm sure there is, or will be here shortly, as hypercar manufacturers have finally headed in that direction.

It just needs to not look like the CR-Z, MiEV or Leaf.

Which is a difficult argument to make, because "Millenials" according to designers.

Well, the big boys are definitely doing the sports hybrid thing, but I guess we'll see if that trickles down to our plebian(sp?) sports cars. The idea of sending power to individual motors sounds cool, but I'm just not sure it's worth all the battery weight in a low-cost performance application yet.

Not really affordable, but im really enamored by Porsche's KERS system they have in the 918 RSR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_918_Spyder

Basically, a heavy freewheel that is spun up when the car is at WOT, and keeps spinning until its needed coming out of a corner or partial throttle situation. I am sure Ive waaaay oversimplified it, but its basically a system that reserves kinetic energy, not electrical energy.

Apparently a great side effect is that since its spinning in flat horizontal plane, inertia and centrifugal force keep the car flat in corners when its spun up. It sounds incredible, until you think of a 100lb frewheel spinning at several gazillion RPMs about a foot away from your legs. If that thing lets go....

The0retical wrote: It just needs to not look like the CR-Z, MiEV or Leaf.

I actually really like the way the CR-Z looks and wish it was good.

Does anyone know if the chassis is good enough to ditch the hybrid nonsense and replace with it a K20?

Porsche has the platform, front wheels via electric motor, rear wheels via the gas engine and a nice control system to run both.

IIRC that was the reason for the wheelbase stretch in the 997

Chadeux wrote:

The0retical wrote: It just needs to not look like the CR-Z, MiEV or Leaf.

I actually really like the way the CR-Z looks and wish it was good. Does anyone know if the chassis is good enough to ditch the hybrid nonsense and replace with it a K20?

https://www.youtube.com/embed/PAqGYP2AXjQ

4cylndrfury wrote: Not really affordable, but im really enamored by Porsche's KERS system they have in the 918 RSR. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_918_Spyder Basically, a heavy freewheel that is spun up when the car is at WOT, and keeps spinning until its needed coming out of a corner or partial throttle situation. I am sure Ive waaaay oversimplified it, but its basically a system that reserves kinetic energy, not electrical energy. Apparently a great side effect is that since its spinning in flat horizontal plane, inertia and centrifugal force keep the car flat in corners when its spun up. It sounds incredible, until you think of a 100lb frewheel spinning at several gazillion RPMs about a foot away from your legs. If that thing lets go....

Flywheel (not freewheel) generators are very old and very usable tech. They take the place of the batteries in hybrids. There is no reduction in capacity as there is with batteries. I believe the power density (juice/lb) of batteries has surpassed them for the juice needed in a street car. That is the reason Porsche stopped using them.

False though it may be, I think the prevailing perception is that anyone interested in a "fast car" or a "sports car" is a hedonistic monster bent on destroying the environment and running over little bunny rabbits. Automakers have yet to see the error of their ways.

The Lexus GS450h is sorta a sports/hybrid. Kinda big though. BMW is supposed to be working on a bunch of offerings in the near future.

In reply to 1988RedT2:

Completely agree. Somehow, to be a gear head and a tree hugger is somehow contradictory. I say bs. But then again, I'm both.

In reply to markwemple:

same here! Save the environment 1 cornering G at time

The 918 really is something else.

I still like my gmt900 hybrid based trailer trash p1 idea

FlightService wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: Not really affordable, but im really enamored by Porsche's KERS system they have in the 918 RSR. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_918_Spyder Basically, a heavy freewheel that is spun up when the car is at WOT, and keeps spinning until its needed coming out of a corner or partial throttle situation. I am sure Ive waaaay oversimplified it, but its basically a system that reserves kinetic energy, not electrical energy. Apparently a great side effect is that since its spinning in flat horizontal plane, inertia and centrifugal force keep the car flat in corners when its spun up. It sounds incredible, until you think of a 100lb frewheel spinning at several gazillion RPMs about a foot away from your legs. If that thing lets go....

Flywheel (not freewheel) generators are very old and very usable tech. They take the place of the batteries in hybrids. There is no reduction in capacity as there is with batteries. I believe the power density (juice/lb) of batteries has surpassed them for the juice needed in a street car. That is the reason Porsche stopped using them.

Im sticking with freewheel - it is spun up via engagement with the cars engine, and allowed to spin freely once its reached its max speed, then is disengaged. At this point, it is no longer in contact with the engine, and is spinning on its own.

http://www.wikidiff.com/freewheel/flywheel

Linky said: As nouns the difference between flywheel and freewheel is that flywheel is a rotating mass used to maintain the speed of a machine within certain limits while the machine receives or releases energy at a varying rate while freewheel is a device in a transmission that disengages the driveshaft from the driven shaft when the driven shaft rotates faster than the driveshaft.

however, its kind of splitting hairs here, because, based on the definitions above, the component we are discussing is technically neither of those.

The BMW i8 went on sale in 2014. It's not particularly affordable but it costs way less than a La Ferrari.

Wearymicrobe liked his BMW i3--when it wasn't at the dealer for service--but I don't recall how 'sporty' he thought it was to drive.

I would say the Lexus CT200h is a step in this direction. They make it with an available F-sport suspension.

Fast, it is not, but they at least tried to put some "Sport" into the Prius.

Yes the i8 and CT200H are in the realm of what I'm discussing, although more pricey and less sporty than I'm thinking.

Isn't hybrid rumored for next 911?

Matt B wrote: The idea of sending power to individual motors sounds cool, but I'm just not sure it's worth all the battery weight in a low-cost performance application yet.

The cost is a bigger problem than the weight...a hybrid powertrain will add an easy $5~10k to a car, which can be a dealbreaker over the cost of even a cheap sport compact for us mere mortals.

There's a chance we might never see a cheap sports hybrid - manufacturers might jump straight to cheap sports EVs.

My Highlander Hybrid has a 3 liter V6 and 2 electric motors.

Build a chassis and go!

In reference to the 918 "Entertainingly, E-Power mode and Race mode are one turn away from each other, so going from tree-hugging hippie to sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll happens instantly."

This is how I imagine Amy

I want my sports hybrid to be a GTI with an F1 style MGU-H unit instead of a wastegate.

turtl631 wrote: Yes the i8 and CT200H are in the realm of what I'm discussing, although more pricey and less sporty than I'm thinking. Isn't hybrid rumored for next 911?

I doubt a hybrid 911 would be considered affordable by most people's standards. The affordable performance hybrids Are about 2 years away.

The Lexus GS450h is sorta a sports/hybrid. Kinda big though. BMW is supposed to be working on a bunch of offerings in the near future.

My experience with the 1g GS450h is that it's not sporty in any way other than being really fast for a hybrid (just slightly slower than my 996 911 both on paper and when i raced them against each other). But, the 2g car has an F-sport version and I find that body style of GS to be inherently sportier in design to begin with. So, it might fit the definition of what we're talking about in sportiness, but it is not particularly small or affordable..