Spun bearing after FRS valve spring recall, dealer claims oil pump failure

I think this is more just for me to vent and to document my conversation with the dealer since I'm on vacation and there is absolutely no paper in the hotel room to write it down on, so please bear with me. I brought my 2013 FRS to the dealer to get the valve spring recall done, and had a new clutch, TOB, spark plugs put in while the engine was out. 400km later, i hear a slight rattle when I just get on or off the gas. By the time I get home, about 20km further, the noise has gotten louder and constant. About half a km from my house, engine stalls, but when restarts it sounds like shaking a metal can full of rocks. I manage to get it home, it stalls again in driveway, I didn't try restarting it, just had it towed to the dealer.

For those not familiar with the FRS valve spring recall, its been a disaster, with many, many documented cases of engine failures with symptoms like mine, within 1000 miles of the recall being done. Just google "scion recall" and google suggests "scion recall failure". Apparently the Scion/Toyota techs are putting too much sealant on the timing cover, it ends up flaking off and blocks oil passages leading to main bearing failures.  It's a Subaru engine, and there are almost no failures if a Subaru dealer does the recall. A lot of people have gotten the dealer to step up and supply a new short block, I'm being told "it's just an unfortunate coincidence, that will be $8600 CDN for a new shortblock please." 

After pulling the oil pan and finding metal shavings in the oil the dealer tore down the engine, says "the oil pump failed, the oil pump bearing seized, so they couldn't even turn it by hand, so there's no way the serpentine belt could have kept turning it, that caused low oil pressure and caused a bearing on the crankshaft to spin." I asked why I didn't get a low oil pressure warning if the pressure was that low, he says it was still high enough to not trigger the sensor. I point out that the oil pump isn't driven by the serpentine belt, he ignores me. I realize not all service advisors are engine experts, I assume he's confusing the timing chain with a timing belt with a serpentine belt. I'm also assuming the oil pump is driven be the timing chain, the only "serpentine belt" I've seen driving an oil pump is for dry sump scavenging systems, but I'm no expert.

They said they reviewed all of their work for the recall and everything they did was perfect,  the valve springs still move, all the silicone was where it was supposed to be, etc. I asked if they looked at the cam bearings, because if the crank bearings are shot due to no oil, there's a chance the cam bearings got wiped out too and a new shortblock won't fix that. He said that they didn't get that far into the engine to look, but everything else looked good from the bottom end. I point out that if they looked at the valve springs the cam bearings are right there, he said he'll go ask the tech. He came back and said they didn't check the cam bearings, then started talking about the oil pressure relief valve failed and stuck open, and mentioned that when they spun the oil pump by hand the valve didn't move. I pointed out he previously said the oil pump didn't turn at all and now he's saying it does spin, he says that they usually will spin really easily but now it takes two or three fingers to turn it.  Googling doesn't show FRS oil pump failure, or relief valve failures to happen much.

I told him not to touch it any more, I'll deal with it when I'm back from vacation. I suppose it could be a huge coincidence that this happened 400km after the recall (I once had an engine mount fail two days after replacing the starter on my 99 Cougar) but I think the dealer is just covering their ass. Unfortunately, it's my word against there's, so I'm screwed. Now I have to start looking for a used engine to swap into it.

Sorry for the incredibly long post, I just wanted to document this somewhere.  If I'm over reacting and the dealers story does make sense, please let me know, I've never torn down an engine enough to have actually spun an oil pump be hand.

Now I'm going to get back to enjoying my vacation.

How is this still happening to FRS owners? 

In reply to MrFancypants :

Lazy techs, poor customer service. 

That failure is a very serious "coincidence".

It's always the fault of the last guy that touched it.....

I'd suggest that it may have been started without oil or there was contamination (silicone or otherwise).

Some dealership mechanics should have their tool box welded shut.

It appears the dealership has made their choice, it was warranty work can't you summon the mothership for an intervention?

Get ahold of the regional customer service rep and if he refuses, see if they will at least pick up a portion of the bill.

Professor_Brap (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to MrFancypants :

Lazy techs, poor customer service. 

Seriously. You'd think that maybe after nearly a decade Toyota techs would have figured out how to fix Subaru engines.

It's going to be a nightmare for owners when the BMW engines start needing to be opened up.

In reply to MrFancypants :

I know a few toyota techs that won't even touch the new supra. 

Seriously, production vehicle valve spring failures were mostly cleaned up in the late '60s and '70s imo. For this to be problem today is unforgivable. I too think that liquid gasket sealers are a bane due to techs using too much. And I'll admit that I made that mistake back in the early '80s (to much regret). Meanwhile, my wife bought a new 2012 Forester and we both agree that we'll never, ever, buy another Subaru. She's had nothing but terrible/dishonest customer service at every Suba dealership she's been to (3 in all).

Anyway Schmidlap, I bid you well. Just don't hold breath on any Subaru doing what's right in your case.

Schmidlap said:

I'm also assuming the oil pump is driven be the timing chain, the only "serpentine belt" I've seen driving an oil pump is for dry sump scavenging systems, but I'm no expert.

I've never taken an FRS/BRZ engine apart, but on most modern engines the oil pump gear goes around the crank and is directly driven by a couple of flats on the crankshaft.  The only way to run the motor without the oil pump turning is if you shatter the oil pump gear.  There's no bearing in it.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Schmidlap said:

I'm also assuming the oil pump is driven be the timing chain, the only "serpentine belt" I've seen driving an oil pump is for dry sump scavenging systems, but I'm no expert.

I've never taken an FRS/BRZ engine apart, but on most modern engines the oil pump gear goes around the crank and is directly driven by a couple of flats on the crankshaft.  The only way to run the motor without the oil pump turning is if you shatter the oil pump gear.  There's no bearing in it.

Yeah, this uses a crankshaft driven pump gear without a bearing.  

Relevant topic: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2847358

Complain to Toyota corporate in writing. (email) Do not mention lawyers, lawsuits, etc.

Just say how disappointed you are in the outcome,how much you like the car, outline what happened and the bad outcome, outline the dealer's representative and tech showing little knowledge about the cars they is paid to service.  Reference the track record of Toyota techs overdoing the gasket sealer while Subaru techs do not for the same engine.

Might work.  This general "be nice"  approach worked for me with Ford when our EDGE cracked its engine block 2000 miles past warranty when it was only 2 years old.  They gave me a $7000 complete engine, I had to pay $1500 labor for the change out.    Receipt said "customer relations" where the engine price should have been.

I have had techs screw things up when fixing other things - which is why I only farm out mechanical work if I don't have the tools and/or strength to do the job or the job would take the vehicle out of service for too many days.

First thing I'd do is get them to provide a complete description of their assessment (specifically including the methods of determination) that they are committing to, in writing. Not just verbally. Then it's their written word against the mechanically verifiable facts of the engine, rather than your word. Hopefully they don't throw too much of the 'evidence' away.

What they've told you so far contains demonstrably false information. If they are dumb enough to stick to that story in writing, then you have a much stronger legal standing when it comes time to escalate. If they are half as smart as they are dishonest, they'll suddenly 'discover' new findings that will most likely be in your favor.

Also document everything. The date, time, and person you talked to, what was said, and in the case of them getting info from other people (the mechanic) the name of them as well... Maybe even let them know that 'for quality assurance, this phone call is being recorded'.

Wooooooowww.....  He's so full of E36 M3 i bet his eyes are brown.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts, everyone, and for the advice and knowledge. My plan is to start with contacting Toyota corporate, and see how that goes. My younger brother, a lawyer, suggested going to the media after that if corporate doesn't help, "local dealership trying to scam essential worker who needs his car to get to work to treat cancer patients",says he'll happily write up a very lawyerish letter if all else fails.

Red_stapler, thanks for the link, that was the only discussion of an oil pump failure that I could find too. The dealer said nothing about it shattering. 

A former drinking buddy is a professional engine builder (McLaren Engines, Isuzu R&D, one of the Viper racing teams), I'll see if I can get him to help me tear down the engine the rest of the way and give his opinion.

Car-part.com shows very few 2013 engines in yards, lots of 2014 and 15 engines though, I'll have to look into compatibility if I get no good resolution from this. Or LSX if I feel like throwing a crap load more money at it.

I did have a great day snowboarding today though. The ski resorts in the Canadian Rockies are absolutely deserted right now.

In reply to Schmidlap :

Don't be surprised if your letter to the media is returned as, "media who is paid big advertising dollars from dealerships chooses not to bite the hands that feeds them."

I'm still stuck on the accessory belt driving the oil pump.  This is NEVER the case.  EA82 engined Subarus did drive the oil pump by the left side timing belt, because the left side timing belt drove the camshaft that had the distributor, so if you lost that belt the engine would fail to run.  But the last EA82s were mass-produced in 1990 and last sold in 1994 and the Taco Bell reject of a service manager is probably younger than that.

The oil pressure bypass will not move unless it is installed on an engine that is running fast enough that the oil volume provided by the pump is restricted enough by the clearances in all of the bearings in the engine.  You cannot spin the pump by hand and see a valve move.  At all.  The very idea that this could be the case indicates that someone is either a complete, staring at a light bulb, drool-cup wearing, blithering idiot, or they think that you are and will accept that load of enriched bullE36 M3tium.

This is the kind of parts hanger (refuse to call them technicians) and/or service manager that is why we should have a strong welfare system, because society is better off if we pay them to stay home and loser by themself rather than have a job and screw things up for society at large.

Yes, I'm emotionally charged.  I'm berkeleying enraged.  This is the kind of shiny happy person that gives me and my profession a bad name.

Schmidlap said:

Car-part.com shows very few 2013 engines in yards, lots of 2014 and 15 engines though, I'll have to look into compatibility if I get no good resolution from this.

From what I read on some Toyobaru forums, the engines are pretty interchangeable. I just read some account of someone who was swapping in a later engine after they had the "power bump" and IIRC the differences were mostly sensors etc. Again, mostly Internet "knowledge" but it appears to me that especially the early engines before the mid-lifetime refresh should just drop in.

In reply to BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) :

I stuck a junkyard 2016 engine in place of my 2013 engine, it was plug and play, no issues.  I left the ignition and direct injection stuff that came with the 2016 on it, I think the problems arise when you try to mix and match those components.

My personal record is skipping on the track "make the motherberkeleyers pay".

https://www.thedrive.com/news/37435/engines-keep-failing-as-the-subaru-brz-scion-fr-s-valve-spring-recall-debacle-drags-on

Engines Keep Failing as the Subaru BRZ/Scion FR-S Valve Spring Recall Debacle Drags On

It's been over a year since a class-action lawsuit was filed. Meanwhile, more engines are failing after a recall service.

My understanding based on internet research for what it is worth, and from a friend who works in an automotive machine shop is that the engines are glued together and tolerate very little of the adhesives in the system.

When I went in for the work I mentioned my concerns on the subject and the service tech said he had never heard of such a thing. Knowing that I was dealing with either a liar or an ill informed and incompetent service rep did not give me a good feeling.

I delayed this service for over a year because of the reports of engine failures after the fix. 

What exactly does this repair entail? Just changing the valve springs?

Can't you remove the cam without removing the front cover? Or is the sprocket hidden and it cant be accessed? 

I mean, any good mechanic should be able to handle this, Subaru or Toyota. An engine is an engine. 

I have changed the two timing belts on an old 80s subaru wagon before and it wasn't rocket science. I know chains are trickier but still. 

In reply to Slippery (Forum Supporter) :

The cylinder heads are a multilayer arrangement.  You can actually remove the camshafts as an assembly on what I'll call a mounting tray.  I'm told this makes the machining simpler enough that it is worth the additional liability in leakage points.

Toyota GR engines use the same style of camshaft mounting.  The difference is, GRs have external oil feed lines to the cylinder head, whereas Subaru engines feed oil through the sealing surfaces.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Ok, I think I understand. 

I think B16 Honda's are like that. I had to machine the cam carriers to allow for a high lift cam on a race engine once. 

M/S5x engines on BMWs also have cam carriers. But no gaskets. 

I am assuming the Subaru engines need to be sealed as the trays are not within the head but their mating surface is exposed to the outside. 

Here's a decent-ish image of the valve cover off, and the upper part of the cylinder head getting removed.

BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) said:

Schmidlap said:

Car-part.com shows very few 2013 engines in yards, lots of 2014 and 15 engines though, I'll have to look into compatibility if I get no good resolution from this.

From what I read on some Toyobaru forums, the engines are pretty interchangeable. I just read some account of someone who was swapping in a later engine after they had the "power bump" and IIRC the differences were mostly sensors etc. Again, mostly Internet "knowledge" but it appears to me that especially the early engines before the mid-lifetime refresh should just drop in.

 

This is correct. The 2017+ engines will need the 2013-2016 sensors swapped on.

Just a quick update. First, thanks for the info about engine compatibility throughout the years, hopefully I don't have to worry about it.

Taking Jharry3's recommendation to "be nice", I sent the service advisor an email this morning basically saying "thanks for spending so much time on the phone yesterday explaining the failure with my engine. I was kind of shocked by the $8000+ repair estimate so I'm not sure my notes about our conversation are complete, can you please review the details below and make sure I've got everything straight and add any info I missed so that I can start sourcing parts to get my car back on the road." I then listed all the stuff he said. I didn't expect an answer, or just a statement saying just "the oil pump failed, and the engine spun a bearing" and not confirming what he said so that everything would be my word against his, but he instead said "yes, your notes are perfect, that's exactly what we found." He was also kind enough to tell me he had found a used engine for me for only $8631 plus tax and labour. 

Next up I'll send an email to Toyota corporate detailing what happened and see what happens. I want to wait until I have the car back just to see if they actually took off the stuff they said they did to inspect the engine. That will be monday at the earliest.

Thanks again for everyone's help with this, this forum is awesome!