Start planning for next year, Soccer moms invade the 2016 challenge...

Appleseed wrote: Has anyone found a dedicated, real dajiban site. Like from Japan real? I need to see their suspension tricks, post haste.

These are the only pictures I have found of the underside of one.

That looks to have about .5" of suspension travel.

That also doesn't look like $10,000 worth of suspension. I'd seriously investigate Dakota drop spindles, so you could have a reasonably small amount of travel.

SVreX wrote: This is awesome. I'm gonna wait to start cutting up my van until the the safety rules are defined a bit better. Right now, they don't appear to allow them:

$2015 Challenge Rules say: Cars must meet the safety requirements of the host club... ...Autocross safety regulations will be provided by the host club.

Complete Challenge Rules

2015 SCCA Rules say: Unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity and a narrow track, including SUVs, minivans, and 4WD pickups, must be excluded.

I'd rather not spend a lot of effort building a car that the event host club could disqualify in tech. Thoughts?

I would highly recommend that someone at GRM gets in touch with Martin Sports Car Club on this topic before anyone is too deeply invested.

OK someone buy it.

http://charleston.craigslist.org/cto/5308136447.html

failboat wrote: OK someone buy it. http://charleston.craigslist.org/cto/5308136447.html

Wow. I'd be a little worried about that blow by mentioned (I'm also no expert on turbo dodges), but holy cow. I might have to arrive and drive one.

That thing was on Reddit (as per my wife, I can't afford another timesink website..), and some of the parts on it make it seem like a reasonably good deal.

Build thread started.

1996 Chevy Lumina APV GTP

I think the concern with rolling a van is being blown out of proportion. I don't think any of the potential competitors are planning on bringing a stock suspensioned van. The Odyssey that I am bringing is no more likely to roll then a honda fit which is an excellent autocross vehicle. If someone had mentioned autocrossing a jeep cherokee before we saw it at the challenge we all would have said that it was unsafe. It won the autocross it's second year.

My point is a well driven, lowered minivan is no more dangerous to autocross then some of the other vehicles from past challenges.

If a van shows up that is unsafe then it can be addressed at the event. I think making a blanket statement that vans are unsafe is a little short sighted.

Funny fact: Ford used to advertise something called RSC on the back of Exploders, and all it did was if the car seemed like it was going to flip, it basically pulled the e-brake (though through abs actuation) and made it spin out instead. SO i guess the one time i put 175/80/13s on the back of my van and slid it all over the place was a valid approach to rollover avoidance.

In reply to Vigo:

That would totally work with the cops when they catch you hooning.

Got my Challenge starter kit today. $250, rwd, auto.

pimpm3 wrote: I think the concern with rolling a van is being blown out of proportion. I don't think any of the potential competitors are planning on bringing a stock suspensioned van. The Odyssey that I am bringing is no more likely to roll then a honda fit which is an excellent autocross vehicle. If someone had mentioned autocrossing a jeep cherokee before we saw it at the challenge we all would have said that it was unsafe. It won the autocross it's second year. My point is a well driven, lowered minivan is no more dangerous to autocross then some of the other vehicles from past challenges. If a van shows up that is unsafe then it can be addressed at the event. I think making a blanket statement that vans are unsafe is a little short sighted.

It's not a question of whether it is short sighted, or if you agree or disagree.

The SCCA rules are pretty clear. They have a blanket rule prohibiting minivans.

Unless Martin Sports Club is willing to overlook this and take the risk with their insurance company, they are required to eliminate minivans based on the SCCA rules.

1 lowered Jeep is a very different risk than an entire class. Based on the entries I have seen for the past 11 years, I can almost guarantee someone will show up with a stock (or poorly) suspended car. Probably on crappy tires.

Go for it if you like. I will continue to read your build thread. As I said earlier, I think it is a load of fun, and fairly awesome, but I am not cutting up my van until I hear more.

At least 5 different people have made the request. It's not unreasonable to seek clarification on existing safety rules.

pimpm3:

Your comment appears to be saying to people like ProDarwin, wheels777, n8, and myself, "Don't be a party pooper."

We all know wheels777 is capable of building a wheelstander van. He didn't pull the trigger on a van purchase because of the existing rules. I have 2 Odysseys in the driveway, and at least 500 hp worth of engines I could throw in one of them. Not doing it yet because of the existing rules.

We are not the wet blanket. We are just reading the rules. Even the GRM rules have not yet been modified to include this class.

Go easy on us. We are on the same team as you.

BTW, this is not the first time we have had a serious conversation/ question about a safety rule that prohibited something people wanted to do.

There was a long debate about short wheelbase cars with engine swaps based on the NHRA safety rules (which prohibit them).

Toyman01 wrote: Lots of cubes, as low as possible.

That's what I'm thinking. A body-on frame should be relatively easy to relocate the motor as far back as your driveshaft will allow. Can we run cargo-vans? - Chop the thing for low cg and high-style. Dropped spindles and massive sway-bars.

Let's look at two of the most likely canidates for this class...

A first gen odyseey and a first gen dodge caravan. Both are very similar in track and height. The Odyseey has a track of 60.8 and the Caravan has a track of 61. The odyseey is 64.6 inches tall and the dodge is the dodge is 64.4. Keep in mind both vehicles are equipped with factory roof racks which add approximately 1.5 inches to their height.

Even taking the roof racks into account the ratio of width to height (track / height) is .941 and .947. Without the racks the number jumps to .965 and .968 respectively.

For comparisons sake let's look at two tall cars that are commonly autocrossed a Honda fit and a Fiat abarrth (which coincidently were provided by GRM in 2014 for the General tire challenge). A 2007 Honda fit has a 57.3 track and is 60 inches tall providing a ratio of .955. The Abarth has a 55 inch track and is 58.7 tall for a ratio of .937. My point is a stock non lowered caravan or odyssey has a better track to height ratio then a Fiat Abarth and with the roof racks removed is better then a Honda Fit.

The facts do not support these two vehicles being any more prone to flip then the Fiats that several of us beat on in 2014 or a Honda Fit which is an excellent autocross platform.

My Odyseey will be lowered several inches and will have shorter, wider tires on it in October. It's height to track ratio will be closer to 1.05 which is better then many stock class autocross vehicles.

In reply to pimpm3:

That's awesome. Let me know when the SCCA starts letting you write their safety rules, because I would much rather run by the pimpm3 rules than the SCCA rules.

Isn't the Martin Sports car club not associated with the SCCA? Is GRM? Its their event if they wan't to allow minivans to run its their prerogative.

I talked with JG yesterday at the Florida Autocross championship and he didn't seemed concerned about the minivans not being able to run. He said if one showed up that was unsafe it would be addressed at the event. Now mind you that is far from an official ruleing but unless something has changed the staff is 100% on board with this. If the rolling over concern was a non starter they would tell us.

In reply to pimpm3:

Good job. Way to make a few of us the enemy for asking a reasonable question.

The rules have been posted. You are welcome to read them.

Asking for clarification is not a crime.

I haven't made anyone an enemy or said anything negative to anybody. I am not trying to be disrespectful but if anything you have been the negative one.

I am simply trying to make the point that this is the magazines event. They gave the go ahead to the minivan thing at the challenge and they are well aware of the rules involved because again this is their event. If they were concerned with the van's not being able to autocross they would not have given this class their blessing. Regardless of what the SCCA rules state the challenge is not put on by the SCCA it is put on by GRM.

I guess the Jeep that won the autocross two years ago should be disqualified because it "isn't legal per SCCA rules" How about the Turbo Caravan from the original challenge, its not legal either. Why is a Cherokee allowed to compete but not an Odyssey?

In reply to pimpm3:

People are coming from across the country and putting hundreds to thousands of hours and thousands of dollars into this effort. A simple statement from a magazine employee would clarify what is considered unsafe so no one would have to be DQ'ed at the event.

I would think using the SCCA's ruling on height/track width ratio limits as a basis would be a good start. Vehicles that don't meet that rule but feel they are less likely to roll due to other considerations could appeal directly to the magazine staff or Martin SCC for approval. That's just me though-I will wait for GRM's official word before I start hacking into the Previa.

vwcorvette wrote: Got my Challenge starter kit today. $250, rwd, auto.

I've been waiting for someone to show up with an Astro or Safari. This gives me ideas for a new daily.

I understand, I will await their ruling on the matter, as will the other 5 people who have already bought vans for this...

pimpm3 wrote: I understand, I will await their ruling on the matter, as will the other 5 people who have already bought vans for this...

I hope it works out. Even if I don't compete it will be incredibly amusing to watch.