Starter or Key Switch, that is the question

Once again, today, my Kelmark GT (VW type 1 chassis)  failed to start. Its always on the way home. 

No er,er,er, and no click, click. Lights, radio, yep, so power to the VW harness, fuel pump, so power to the Subaru harness, not that the latter matters as the starter is on the VW side.

The last time this happened, I found some corrosion on the battery negative terminal. Cleaned negative and positive, found the positive terminal clamp had been tightened for the last time, so I replaced it and the cable. Cleaned all the connections at the starter while doing so. Also cleaned the transmission ground strap and connection points, both frame and trans. This was about 6-8 weeks ago. Figured I was good to go, until trying to start it leaving work today.

Did the starter tap,tap.tap with a breaker bar, no luck, still no er,er,er, or click click.

Call to AAA (northern new england), and unlike the last time where I waited an hour before I went to work to save myself, I got after it right away. Slight hill, light car, cranked the wheel and pushed it out of the space and headed down the hill pushing. Not recommended in a car this low and hard to jump into when moving at about 5mph, heck its not easy to get in when its not moving.  I made it in, pushed in the clutch, put it in second and let the clutch out. Fired up. 

Made it home, but like I said, this never does it at home, work parking lot, intersections in traffic when I stall it, yep. Home no issues.

So, how do I figure this out when its OK. Do I just have to shotgun this and do both the starter and the ignition switch or just do one and wait to get stuck again ?

Thanks
Steve

How old are the starter and  ignition switch? Also, if power is going through the ign sw maybe a relay is in your future.

In reply to L5wolvesf :

I am pretty sure the ignition switch is from 73. The starter, no idea, it does not look that old, but it could be original also as a lot of the chassis is pretty clean. The conversion from beetle to kelmark was 20k miles and 33 years ago best I can tell . It could have been done then. 

I don't believe there is an external relay in the circuit other than the one built into the starter. 

If you add a relay into the trigger circuit, that removes any voltage drop through switches and bulkhead connectors, and gives the solenoid a full 12 volt shot.  That sometimes convinces an old Bosch starter to work.  (VW starter, right?)

Or, piggyback a wire to a little bulb into the trigger circuit right at the starter, and hang the bulb somewhere that you can see it, then drive around until it quits.  Key to crank, no crank no light, find the wiring issue.  No crank with light, starter or too much corrosion or paint on the starter mount or bad cables or starter.

As an aside, you just described how old Bosch starters fail.

I remember from my vw days that all the starting issues boiled down to the wire that ran from the starter switch to the starter. That simple trigger wire was constantly getting dirty enough to not complete the circuit

run a jumper to the solenoid

See if you are getting current to and from the switch

   This should help locate the problem

lrrs said:

In reply to L5wolvesf :

I am pretty sure the ignition switch is from 73. The starter, no idea, it does not look that old, but it could be original also as a lot of the chassis is pretty clean. The conversion from beetle to kelmark was 20k miles and 33 years ago best I can tell . It could have been done then. 

I don't believe there is an external relay in the circuit other than the one built into the starter. 

I don't know if ACVWs have power through the ign sw, but 33 years is a pretty good service life. Wouldn't hurt to just change it now. Then while you're at it wire in a starter relay (if power does go through the sw) and you'll be good switch wise for a long time. There is a guy named Dale M on thesamba site he is the electric guru there he will answer the power question and have a relay diagram.

Looks like it’s been covered but I would bypass the switch and bump the starter from the battery a few times. If it starts every time then it’s probably the key. 

Old switch had a crack, let's hope...

I will have a jumper wire with me if it happens again. Hoping I won't have to use it. 

I always liked an on/off key and a starter button.

My FiST has a starter button     Oh well.

I was having a similar intermittent problem with my Gaia, occasionally simply would not crank. I checked all the connections, grounds etc. I recently discovered the spade connector on the starter solenoid was corroded, replaced it and it seems fine now.

Typical crappy VW engineering, that connector only lasted 61 years!

In reply to aircooled :

Thanks, if I get stuck again I will check that. From the side, looking in with the rear wheel off, it looked ok.  A better look head on may indicate something differen . 

Weather looks nice today, so this will be the first test. 

In reply to lrrs :

That looks just like the switch in my 924s  I was having the same issues. I took the shotgun approach and did both the starter and the switch  

Good news, bad news, and good news, and maybe bad news again.  

 Good..No issues starting yesterday. 

 Bad....Did not start this morning.

Good... it was at home and in my garage. 

Maybe Bad... no time to troubleshoot, and I am betting it starts when I get home with out doing a thing...

The fun of a old car.

I'm assuming you have a new switch? Once you do, add a relay to the system if there isn't one already. Even the amount of current required to trigger the solenoid is a lot for the key switch to handle, these days it's standard practice to add a starter relay to old electrical systems that don't have one. There's a reason it's become a standard feature of production cars designed in the '90s and later.

lrrs said:

 Bad....Did not start this morning.

Saying it "Did not start" doesn't say much. Was there any reaction at all when you turned the key?at all

I x2 on the following.

GameboyRMH said:

I'm assuming you have a new switch? Once you do, add a relay to the system if there isn't one already. Even the amount of current required to trigger the solenoid is a lot for the key switch to handle, these days it's standard practice to add a starter relay to old electrical systems that don't have one. There's a reason it's become a standard feature of production cars designed in the '90s and later.

In reply to L5wolvesf :

My bad, same as the original issue. No er,er,er(of the starter) .  No click,click,click (of the solenoid). Just lights and fuel pump again.

Off to the races shortly to see what's up and hit the parts store if I come to a conclusion of the cause. 

Agreed a relay will be smart and is on the list. It worked for 5 years for me, 25-30 years for others without one, it should work again with out.