Steering problems. What the Berkeley.

truck: 1995 c1500 reg cab short bed. 
lowered: 5/7
Parts used to lower: DJM lowering spindles (2 inch), DJM lower control arms (2inch) belltech coils (1 inch). rear flip kit, overload leaf removed. has firestone ride right airbags in the back for trailer towing duty. DJM shock extenders. 

suspension (other): Bilstein shocks. moog pitman arm, idler arm, inner and outer tie rod ends, idler arm bracket. rockauto complete upper control arm assemblies. ZQ8 cardone steering box. new rag joint. new power steering hoses. old power steering pump of unknown age. 

wheels and tires: 1.25 thick front adapters, 1.5 thick rear. 2012 camaro steel 18 inch wheels, 255/55/18 Michelin runflat tires. 

aligned to factory spec for the 1995 c1500 (4x now, by 3 different shops)

all suspension components have less than 5,000 miles on them. 

problems: 
play at center of steering. about 1.5 inch either way from center. 
stiff steering (abnormally stiff)
memory steering/wont return to center except manually
very darty/wandering al over the road, requiring extreme attention to stay in the lane, bordering on uncontrollable on narrow roads with sharper turns (45mph posted speed limit, doing 35)

the truck is all but undrivable at this point, and cannot pull the race car. or go to lowes. or go to church. or....

I have been chasing my tail at this point, and feel like I have to be missing something. 
in the past 1k of diagnostics, with the truck getting markedly worse, I have:
replaced steering box 3 times
replaced all 4 tie rod ends, pitman arm, center link, idler arm, idler arm bracket, rebuilt rag joint, changed toe, changed tire pressures, changed load bag pressures, greased, and pulled the tie rods and manually worked the spindles to check for ball joint sticking. 

im stumped. I haven't made hardly any change at this point in the behavior. ive GOT to be missing something here, but have no idea what. so please, help me out here. my last grasp at this is to think that the ball joints are sticking with the weight of the truck on them, but check fine at droop. but, that seems absolutely preposterous.

Dad drove it today. He had a different way to describe the steering feel: lots of effort to start the turn, gets easier off center. Easy to steer till close to center, then stiff and difficult. Almost like the middle 6 inches of steering wheel travel (3 inches either way from center) have no assisst or major bind, then the power steering comes back.

Zq8 Cardone steering box.  Find an oe one from the junkyard.  

Never buy a reman steering box.  Ever.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

With the same behavior, to more or less extremes, across 3 boxes? Not trying to argue, but understand. 

Would running through the adjustment procedure in the fsm help?

maybe you're looking in the wrong spot (the wrong end of the truck)?

seems like a long shot and wouldn't really fit your symptoms but what if you have something significantly loose in the rear allowing for unexpected changes as you drive?

my Cardone experience is only in brakes but my experience is that Cardone = Fail nearly 100%.  calipers with leaky seals.  master cylinders that don't build pressure in 1 or both circuits.   i'd dick-punch myself before buying another cardone part.

there's probably an on-center adjustment screw with lock nut on the steering box.   that could be too tight, which would increase required effort to get back to center.   in my experience, these are just to make up for on-center wear and tightening them to improve on-center will cause increased effort farther from center.

in general, dartiness can be lack of positive caster or presence of toe-out.   lack of self-centering is almost always due to lack of positive caster.

questions for you, and please take these as 100% objective and in the interest of problem-solving:

1.  are the lower control arms the same PN for LH and RH, or are they Handed ie unique LH and RH?

2.  if they are unique, are they installed on the correct sides of the vehicle?

3 and 4.  same questions for upper control arms?

5.  what are your current alignment numbers, especially caster and toe?  post a pic of alignment sheet if possible.

6.  if any of the mounting bolts are shouldered, is it possible that the nuts are bottoming out before the bolt is actually tight?  i'm thinking of UCA cross-shafts, but applies to all through-bolts.

7.  are all the through-bolts the correct diameters for the holes they pass through, ie not using any 9/16" diameter bolts in 5/8" ID holes etc?

8.  rotate tires straight forward/back, ie swap LF/LR and RF/RR.   does this change how the vehicle drives?

All good advice, AC

Bind in the column itself? Disconnect the rag joint and see how it feels?

Just guessing, you've covered the usual suspects already.

Robbie said:

maybe you're looking in the wrong spot (the wrong end of the truck)?

seems like a long shot and wouldn't really fit your symptoms but what if you have something significantly loose in the rear allowing for unexpected changes as you drive?

that's definitely something to check.   not to pat myself on the back, but i suggested that in a different thread.  ;-)

SaltyDog said:

All good advice, AC

Bind in the column itself? Disconnect the rag joint and see how it feels?

Just guessing, you've covered the usual suspects already.

Had that thought. Checked for play and bind in the column with the box out, and didnt find/feel anything .

Angry/robbie: i went over the back. Found nothing loose or broken. Spring bushings felt good, but i didn't pull the leaf pack to visually inspect the bushings. Did not see any broken leaves.

In reply to AngryCorvair :

Arms are all location specific  and in the correct place. When i get back to the house, ill see if i have the most recent alignment sheet. Memory says about 3 degrees positive caster, zero toe and camber. Doesnt pull.

As far as bottoming out bolts: hadn't ever thought of that! Will check and confirm/deny.

The bolts are ALL factory hardware, put back in the holes they came from. Except one idler arm bracket bolt, wich is a grade 8 instead of the factory one that fell somewhere in the boxed section of the frame.

I had the tires rotated during this process with the same effects regardless of the position of any specific wheel/tire. 

kinda sounds like the side effects of having zero/near zero caster. What was your caster at after your alignments?

are those your front control arms?   if yes, looks impossible to mix lowers side to side, but uppers could be and that would eff up a lot of stuff.  if mixed, should be impossible to get caster to desired range of +5degrees-ish.

In reply to AngryCorvair :

Those are the correct lower control arms that I'm using. The uppers are stock replacement pieces that I have confirmed her on the correct side. I know this due to how the factory brake hose attaches and how the shock nut hole lines up in the stamping.

In reply to edizzle89 :

I'll have to get you exact numbers. I have had the same thought about Caster, but I'm concerned that I might be masking the real issue by shotgunning alignment changes at it. Winstock these trucks weren't known for their having issues like this, so my assumption has been that stock alignment specs were appropriate. However in hindsight that may not be correct because they were 5 inches higher than with much skinnier tires

With those spacers and wheels, do you know what your effective offset is now vs stock?  Not enough caster combined with way too much scrub radius (negative offset) could cause that sort of thing.

EDIT: And you've got a bunch of slop in the steering somewhere, but that should be relatively easy to trace.

Until I got to the part where you said you replaced the steering box a couple of times, I was going to say steering box.

At this point my guess is still steering box. It sounds like it's out of adjustment to me. I'd be tempted to loosen the adjustment a little bit. 

How much shock travel do you have at static ride height?

with the truck parked but running and a helper slowly turning the steering wheel:

- do you see any interference where tie rods hit sway bar or anything similar? You’ll be looking up under the truck  

- standing beside the truck, does the caster of each wheel look like it changes in a progressive manner? Try and measure the progression through the arc    

Same for camber and toe 

Dusterbd13-michael said:

In reply to AngryCorvair :

Those are the correct lower control arms that I'm using. The uppers are stock replacement pieces that I have confirmed her on the correct side. I know this due to how the factory brake hose attaches and how the shock nut hole lines up in the stamping.

Is it possible that there could be some conflict between the aftermarket lower control arms and the stock uppers?  Different geometries?

amg_rx7 said:

How much shock travel do you have at static ride height?

with the truck parked but running and a helper slowly turning the steering wheel:

- do you see any interference where tie rods hit sway bar or anything similar? You’ll be looking up under the truck  

- standing beside the truck, does the caster of each wheel look like it changes in a progressive manner? Try and measure the progression through the arc    

Same for camber and toe 

 

 

 

I have no idea how to visually check Caster change. However camber and toe appears to react normally. In addition I have verified there is no contact with any suspension parts either with each other or with the frame. The only contact is Tire to Inner Fender over very big Road imperfections.

Just checked, and did not keep alignment print outs. However, factory caster spec is +3.5, with a 1.0+/- range.

Didn't the BYP/ZQ8 trucks come with 275/60-15 tires?  I was looking at mine (which has 235/60-15s on it) and it seems like a lot more tire could fit under there.

How's the pump?  Have you verified there aren't any air pockets in the system by cranking it side to side?

Is the steering still stiff with the front wheels off the ground and the engine idling?  That could tell you if there was an issue with the pump or the rack.

I've heard of issues with racks where it was worn out or bent internally and would cause to bind up or work erratically.  Adjusting the box should help a little, but typically only if the wear is even or the gear itself is straight.

Are the random direction changes accompanied or preceded by any clunks creaks grinds etc?

if I was gonna shotgun some alignment specs at it, I’d go for at least 6 degrees positive caster and somewhere about 1/4” toe IN.

edit:  dang I’m good.  I found OE specs online for 1999 c1500:

caster positive 3.75 +/- 1

toe IN 0.24” +/- 0.20

camber positive 0.5 +/- 0.5

BUT assuming all hard parts fasteners etc are correct, we know that your truck is unstable at these settings (LOL also assuming your truck is aligned to these settings).  So I’d dial in More Positive caster and more toe IN and even though we haven’t discussed it yet I’d aim for about 0.5 degrees Negative camber.

Also fun and a way to rule things out in these situations: what is the dumbest stuff it could possibly be?  Stuff you haven't even checked because it would be too stupid, like the steering box mounts cracking, or the upper arms being flipped left to right, or having some of the links switched around, or the steering shaft is touching the exhaust, or the spindles are for the wrong application- at the very least these sorts of ideas are enjoyable to come up with and may lead to the actual problem.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

With those spacers and wheels, do you know what your effective offset is now vs stock?  Not enough caster combined with way too much scrub radius (negative offset) could cause that sort of thing.

EDIT: And you've got a bunch of slop in the steering somewhere, but that should be relatively easy to trace.

This.  too much scrub + low caster will really make things feel terrible, and can magnify the effect of the slop (which is still an issue on its own)