Sticker shock at the gas pump!

frenchyd said:

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm already on solar and off grid so an electric car and a huge solar array sounds cool in theory but where I live a third of the year we get very little solar so it's generator backup then.

 

I do plan on upgrading my very tiny system though in the future

When I was selling Wind generators there is a cross over point where they pay for themselves. Too small and they are just a hobby.  But big enough to turn a profit gets expensive.  The trouble is marketing costs add so significantly to the cost of wind generators and solar panels.   That and time for management of their erection.  
  Those costs can tack on 50% to the actual costs and attempting to DIY is massively time consuming.  Often leading to inaction because of the hurdles that have to be overcome.  
    We sold mid range wind generators.  The cheapest were $80,000 installed but took 18 years to pay back with a 20 year life.    ( the idea was you pull the actual generator down every 10 years, rebuild it and put it back up). 
   The biggest was Over a million but had a 3 year payback with a projected 50 year life.    
    There are certain things you need to look for to ensure it's viable.  Geared wind generators need too much wind.  The best of those need 6-7 mph before actual power is generated. Plus the maintenance is more than double. 
 Rare earth magnets direct drive can generate  power as low as 2/3 mph. A lattic tower is cheaper but generates too much turbulence plus it's life is less than 50% of what a towers life is. 
    Minimum height is 20 feet above the tree line.  Which requires a lot of concrete and rebar  plus a pretty deep hole. 

I live way deep in the trees so 20ft above the tree line would be like....over 100ft high

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

yupididit said:

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

I'm leaving DFW this summer and very likely will never live in TX again.  I've lived here longer than most people ever will, but the big cities in TX are headed in a bad direction overall.  TX still exists, but you have to be 90 minutes outside and of the big 4 cities to experience it.  

 

And here I am itching to move back to Texas. 

Plenty of cheap land in the Big Bend Area. Carroll Shelby used to hang out in Terlingua.

I've lived out there.  I know why the land out there is cheap.  That is definitely TX, but it's a whole different world out there.  My job doesn't exist out there, but honestly if I went to live out there, I might not need another job, but the wife and kids wouldn't like it. 

yupididit said:

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

I prefer the satx and atx area. Somewhere in the outskirts of either will be nice to move back to. Granted I've only been out of Texas for 2 months lol

The Hill Country is nice, but I don't really like where SA and Austin are headed either.  My parents still live in SA. 

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

Antihero (Forum Supporter) said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm already on solar and off grid so an electric car and a huge solar array sounds cool in theory but where I live a third of the year we get very little solar so it's generator backup then.

 

I do plan on upgrading my very tiny system though in the future

When I was selling Wind generators there is a cross over point where they pay for themselves. Too small and they are just a hobby.  But big enough to turn a profit gets expensive.  The trouble is marketing costs add so significantly to the cost of wind generators and solar panels.   That and time for management of their erection.  
  Those costs can tack on 50% to the actual costs and attempting to DIY is massively time consuming.  Often leading to inaction because of the hurdles that have to be overcome.  
    We sold mid range wind generators.  The cheapest were $80,000 installed but took 18 years to pay back with a 20 year life.    ( the idea was you pull the actual generator down every 10 years, rebuild it and put it back up). 
   The biggest was Over a million but had a 3 year payback with a projected 50 year life.    
    There are certain things you need to look for to ensure it's viable.  Geared wind generators need too much wind.  The best of those need 6-7 mph before actual power is generated. Plus the maintenance is more than double. 
 Rare earth magnets direct drive can generate  power as low as 2/3 mph. A lattic tower is cheaper but generates too much turbulence plus it's life is less than 50% of what a towers life is. 
    Minimum height is 20 feet above the tree line.  Which requires a lot of concrete and rebar  plus a pretty deep hole. 

I live way deep in the trees so 20ft above the tree line would be like....over 100ft high

They have towers at plenty of height but you should check wind speed averages in that area. 

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

What don't you like about SATX?

yupididit said:

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

What don't you like about SATX?

I was born there.  I lived there quite a bit.  I also lived in other parts of the state.  My parents moved back to SA a bit over 20 years ago.  They are starting to not like it too.  Like all the cities in TX it is being overrun by people that hate TX, now they live here.  It's not the same town I grew up in, and it didn't get better as it grew.  I have seen more fatal accidents in Austin and SA than any other place I have lived in TX or while I was in the Navy.  I can't tell you what I don't like about it without offending the PC bunch.  DAs that don't prosecute criminals are in TX now too.  Let's leave it at that. 

Opti said:

Chris_V said:

bobzilla said:

In reply to Chris_V :

Well, I'm not using a vehicle with crap economy, and the worst of the fleet gets used about once a month.A tank of fuel typically lasts 6-8 weeks. It holds a whopping 25 gallons. It's averaging 21+mpg highway and 18-19 if I have to use it for work. Just because it's a larger truck doesn't make it a gas guzzler. 

So how is a vehicle that isn't being used affecting fuel prices again? 

As soon as you DO use it, it affects gas prices. And if you aren't using it, you don't need to complain about gas prices, right?

I wish someone would tell our local electric companies that they aren't raising costs, because we are seeing it in the monthly statement. Unless I am makin that up too. 

Have your electrical costs per kWh gone up over 300 percent in the last two months due to global increases in demand and global decreases in supply? No? Ok, then. The prices are not set by global commodities traders based on supply and demand and worldwide unrest. And again, MY use of an EV doesn't change YOUR rates or utility bill by one red cent and will not. But every time we fill up our cars with gas, REGARDLESS OF FUEL MILEAGE, we increase demand, increasing the pricing for everyone as long as SUPPLY stays constant or drops. Which is what's happening.

 

You understand that when you plug in your EV you absolutely increase demand for electricity, right? See California currently blaming blackouts on all the EVs plugged in, and electricities spot price is absolutely set by supply and demand. Lots of energy companies actually by electricity futures to hedge against volatility. Just because you dont notice it on your bill at the end of the month, does not mean electricities price isnt set by supply and demand. In your part of the world it may be pretty stable, but for many people that is not the case.

Wind and Solar do not stabilize electricity supply, they are by nature unstable. They do diversify the electricity supply which is good, but completely switching to renewables (unless you include nuclear) will not make for a nice stable supply. As a whole the US has been moving away from coal, but they have only shifted to natural gas, with a much smaller shift to renewables. Cheap natural gas has kept prices down over the last decade.

Exactly who in California is blaming EV's?  Since they still don't amount to 2% of sales that's difficult to believe.  I'm inclined to believe that stop lights use more electricity than charging EV's do.  

In reply to frenchyd :

Around this area there are way more than 2 percent EVs if that includes hybrids,

But over in the hood , it's probably way less than 1 percent.

It will be a long time before it's 10 percent and decades before it's 50 percent plus unless the give EVs away.......and pay to rewire the hood with 100-150 amp service.

How do they expect a household of 3 EVs to charge overnight ?

Battery science needs to get much better !

Update , Friday Mar 11th 9am west coast , cheap place $5.49 , most places 5.89, 5.99

update , Monday the 14th at noon , cheap is still at $5.49 ,  other places are creeping over

$6 a gallon ,  I still have half a tank of $4,76

In reply to californiamilleghia :

Yep... and this is why I am fully agreeing with bobzilla here... they are not a panacea but they do make sense for a lot of people, just as they don't make sense for a lot of people.

Just like any other differences in the market.

In reply to californiamilleghia :

"Battery science" isn't going to cause a step change in energy consumption, just in cost. I think the battery science everyone's expecting is akin to the revolutionary ICE that gets trotted out every year or so, when in reality the real ICE progress is a bunch of small improvements piled on top of one another. We're already seeing that with battery costs, the price is falling year over year.

The problem of charging three EVs overnight will not change, nor will the problem of delivering capacity to a house. But charging an EV is about the same load as running an electric dryer so most houses have that capacity, and if it's charging overnight it's pretty unlikely you'd be doing both at the same time. That's the cool thing about electricity, there's a time factor to the delivery. Your 100A service is not 100A in 24 hours, it's 100A at any given time.

You can tell the cars to charge at a certain time if you don't have enough capacity to charge more than one at a time or if your electric bills are time-based or if you need to run the dryer until midnight. Car A charges from 12-2, car B from 2-4, car C from 4-6. And hey, if you can't do that you can pretend it runs on gas and stop by a dedicated refueling station when it needs it. 

EVs don't make sense for everyone, but you'd be surprised how many questions are already answered.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

And unless all of the EVs are driving a bunch of miles every day, you don't even need the higher speed chargers or higher voltage outlets. Charging from a standard 120v outlet usually adds ~4 miles of range per hour of charging. That's nearly 50 miles of range in a 12hr overnight period which makes it a viable option for most EV commuters too. Fast chargers at home falls more into the "want" category than the "need" category for most typical owners.

I was thinking more Level 2, which should fully refill any EV overnight. But you're right. 

Lead story in the news this morning. The AG here in MA is looking in to price gouging by fuel distributors. Don't know if this investigation is based on fact or if it is politically motivated to make the people feel like their government is trying to do something?  I am betting nothing comes of it. 

In reply to dean1484 :

I wouldn't be surprised if they're getting enough complaints that they have to at least look. 

In reply to Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) :

I could totally do that as well. I never need to be in the office. Just an occasional flight to Europe. I choose to live in the city still because I just like it. I have been thinking of a country house and an austin condo.

A good friend does that actually. She is in Mexico working. 24' Trailer to her self. Moves every couple months and uses satellite internet.  They are actually making trailers now with office space built in cashing in on it. 

I'm lucky with my house now, The previous owner paid for Solar 2 years ago. It doesn't have power backup so it's only a supplement. But overall the power bill is less than $65 a month on average. During the winter time, It's almost no bill and the summer is $130ish.

californiamilleghia said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Around this area there are way more than 2 percent EVs if that includes hybrids,

But over in the hood , it's probably way less than 1 percent.

It will be a long time before it's 10 percent and decades before it's 50 percent plus unless the give EVs away.......and pay to rewire the hood with 100-150 amp service.

How do they expect a household of 3 EVs to charge overnight ?

Battery science needs to get much better !

 

Since hybrids are charged by the ICE and not plugged in, they don't add to the overnight load. I know there are a few plug in hybrids  but most are not. 
   Southern California. Enjoys better solar power than us Northern states have.  Your angle to the sun is better and you have more sunny days.  
  As everyone has already said, solar power isn't going to be on every bodies roof  but it makes  economic sense for as many as possible to add solar power.   The more there are the more redundant  with less transmission lossses there are. 
      Don't forget. California came from an electrical shortfall before EV's became available. 
     

Gas at the local cheap place came DOWN $0.07 yesterday. Let us not forget there is hope.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to californiamilleghia :

Yep... and this is why I am fully agreeing with bobzilla here... they are not a panacea but they do make sense for a lot of people, just as they don't make sense for a lot of people.

Just like any other differences in the market.

Make sense or are a priority?   Some people who can afford and it makes sense have other priorities.  That's their right. 
  

In reply to frenchyd :

Priority is a completely different topic. Electric cars just don't work for some. They do for others. 

In reply to bobzilla :

A farmer would be hard pressed to appreciate a Corvette. While a young urban male would appreciate the Corvette and disparage the truck.  ( in general) 

 Is that the sort of thing you're saying?  
    Or are you saying that EV's aren't practical for some while ICE's are too expensive for others?  

In reply to frenchyd :

EVs account for way more than 2% of sales in CA. Late last year they hit 10% of all new car sales in California. I think they finished even higher but im not sure, and dont care to look it up.

California is still in an electricity shortfall.

I may have given the alarmists position on the EVs causing the blackouts, but california did ask its residents during the summer to avoid charging their EVs during peak hours to avoid blackouts.

It would be interesting to know what time of day is peak charging time for EVs. I'm going to guess it's probably early evening, after the daily commute. Of course there will be some charging at different times, but if most are being being used as commuter cars that's when they'll be plugged in at home. And most will stay at that location overnight, so their charging could easily be shifted to later without affecting usage and making better use of the grid. The shortage is at peak times so you charge stuff that stores electricity at different times.

Can't do that with, say, electric stoves. AC, sorta but it wouldn't be ideal for those that demand absolutely consistent interior temps. 

A problem solver. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to bobzilla :

A farmer would be hard pressed to appreciate a Corvette. While a young urban male would appreciate the Corvette and disparage the truck.  ( in general) 

 Is that the sort of thing you're saying?  
    Or are you saying that EV's aren't practical for some while ICE's are too expensive for others?  

I thought he was simply saying "X" will work for some, "X" may not work for others.....regardless of the exact reason.