subaru FB25 engine interchange

Success! Well, time will tell but I tore into the TGVs today, swapped and clocked the magnets and actuators from my 2011 Forester into my new 2017 Forester engine, added 2 6mm washers per side, added a drop of blue loctite to the nut holding the magnet on to make sure it doesn't work loose causing the magnet to move, swapped pins 4&5 each side of the TGV actuator connector (did this previously) and was able to get it back together for a short test drive tonight. 

No check engine codes so far and TGVs are operating as they should. I'll keep you all updated after a few days of driving but so far so good and I'm happy I was able to remove the 2011 TGV manifolds from the engine bay and hopefully this means my engine swap is complete without any major harness changes or issues with the TGV's.

Thank you Skenton and ChayNZ for all the hard work, testing, and information.

There was a comment on another post/site about using a support rib that lines up with the sensor location on the actuators to mark the sensor location on the TGV manifolds, and using those marks to clock the magnets. This is the method I used. I can update my post later with details on that method. It's not very scientific, but I don't have a test jig set up like skenton to dial it in via voltage readings and I felt confident doing it that way. Also, I used a 1/4" drill bit to drill out the magnet mounting tab to be able to clock it, it was the perfect size.

Edit: it was actually ChayNZ's post who explained the support rib and using it to mark the sensor location. Link to post here: 

https://www.subaruforester.org/threads/2014-how-to-install-a-2017-engine-into-a-2011-2016-vehicle.836125/#post-7831889

In reply to Sodapopdave :

Great news! I worried some about the iron filings which ended up sticking to the magnet and were hard to remove. On the other hand they probably cannot ever fall off. What do you think?

In reply to Skenton :

Yeah there is a ton stuck to the magnets in my pics but I used some compressed air once done and was able to blow off anything visible.

Great job guys! Way to stick it through to a successful conclusion!

I ran into something strange today. I ordered in a rear crankshaft seal at Oreilly and they got a "Precision 711039" which is supposed to replace the National part by the same number. Specs say OD 109.3mm I wish now that I had actually measured it.

The factory service manual had an addendum saying to *NOT* lube the outside of the seal when installing so I cleaned the bore with brake cleaner and put just a touch of oil on the inside of the seal where it slides over the shaft. When I slid the seal onto the shaft and rotated it slightly to get the lip spread out it suddenly slid back flush into the bore with light finger pressure. Huh?!!!

Any thoughts? Wrong part, POS part with bad tolerances or something? The old one put up a struggle using a Lisle shaft in seal puller and actually deformed in several places before coming out so it was very tight.

Should I try Fel-Pro BS40748 or real National part from Rock Auto or is OEM the way to go here?

In reply to Skenton :

In my opinion if I had a fitment issue with a aftermarket seal I'd probably just go OEM at that point instead of trying another aftermarket brand.

I used the Felpro BS40748 from Rockauto with no issues.

Good to know, I generally like Felpro stuff. That is what I thought I was ordering but rather than go back to O'Reilly about the Precision seal I picked up a factory seal at the Subaru dealership yesterday. A bit more expensive but not terribly so. Not installed yet but I do not expect any more problems.

Edit - The loose Precision seal slid right back out and I had to tap in the OEM seal as expected. Looks good now.

Just to provide an update after putting about 1k miles on. It's doing great, no issues! Love that there is finally a solid/easy fix for the TGVs.

How is the swap coming along Skenton?

In reply to Sodapopdave :

Slowly  started on the front cover yesterday.

Thanks for the update about the TGV fix.

First I want to say thanks for the pioneers in this forum, it's been quite helpful! Skenton, Sodapopdave, ChayNZ + others. stvnswld your video gave me a lot of confidence in doing this as well, thanks!

This week I completed the swap from a 2017 Forester FB25 AT (75k mi) to my blown 2011 Forester FB25 MT (140k mi).

I swapped wiring harness, timing cover, sensors, coolant crossover, etc. I followed the steps provided for moving the TGV sensors from the '11 to '17, magnets, etc. I also swapped pin 4 & 5 in each plug. The motor runs(feels good!), but, I'm getting P2004 and P2005 codes. The one step I didn't follow well is the part about taking a lot of pictures, oops! I've gone back and re-clocked the magnets on the motor(it's nice that Subaru has a lot of room to work under the hood, nothing else needed to be removed). Still no success. Tried swapping the magnets from left to right, and sensors without success (cleared codes in between).

I saw the pictures that Sodapopdave posted with the timing for the drivers side magnet, wondering if you have pictures of the timing of both magnets so I can copy that on my setup?

Things it might help to keep in mind.

The "old" gears are longer (and lower) have 12 teeth while the "new" gears are shorter (and higher) have 10 teeth. The "old" black magnets are centered across from 12 teeth gears. When moved to the new manifold and modified they should end up slightly off center across from the 10 teeth gears. Visualizing the "missing" two teeth might help with positioning. The lower/higher business is why we have to add washers so the black magnets moved from old to new will get close enough to registers with the sensors in the actuator motor assemblies also moved from old to new. For this application the "new" white magnets are scrap as are the sensors/actuator motors they came with. The two black magnets are mirror image in their North and South pole ends which is why they have to be swapped side to side for fooling the old Forester computer about the TGV direction reversal. Ditto for swapping pins 4/5 to fool the old Forester computer to reverse the motor directions.

Using the test jig I was surprised to see how finicky the clocking angle was so it may take a couple of tries. If you use a connector from the scrap wiring harness and can scare up a 1K Ohm resistor an old USB cable/charger block the test jig is pretty simple to build and makes measuring the 0V signal position obvious.

Thanks Skenton .

I think I left the 2017 gears in there. Might explain why it was making some slight funny noises. I'll swap that over and report back

You want the new 2017 plastic gears, the old 2011 (modified) black magnets + washers and the old 2011 actuator motors/sensors installed on the new plastic manifold of the 2017 donor engine.

In reply to SubArooDude :

You definitely want to use the 2017 gears like Skenton said, the only things you swap is the magnets and actuators, and add the washers between and gears and magnet. Luckily, the 2011 magnets are labeled "A" and "B". You want to put the B magnet on the drivers side, and A magnet on the passenger side (opposite of how they were on the 2011 motor). 

Unfortunately I also forgot to take all the pics so I don't have any of the passenger side but it is the same method for both sides. If you look at my pics for the drivers side, see where I made the mark of where the support rib is on the actuator? Then when clocking the magnets, make sure no portion of the magnet is crossing the mark in the "OFF" position (where the magnet should NOT be over the sensor like in my first pic) and then when you rotate it fully to the other stop, the magnets should cross the mark roughly 90% of the way (like in my second pic). I hope that makes sense. Here is the link again for the method I used to clock the magnets: https://www.subaruforester.org/threads/2014-how-to-install-a-2017-engine-into-a-2011-2016-vehicle.836125/#post-7831889

 I continue to have no issues with my Forester and it is my daily driver. I have moved on to another project (motor swap in a 2013 T5 S60 Volvo) so sorry for the slow response. Good luck with yours, it sounds like you are very close to getting it and let me know if you have any questions!

What is involved in changing the sensor plates once you get to the cam ends. Is it just a matter of carefully removing the 3 bolts, sliding the old plate off and the new one on without disturbing the timing chain then bolting back together? Any tricks or traps? Here is a pic I found of an FB25 intake cam gear assembly for sale as reference.

In reply to Skenton :

Yes, just the 3 bolts and a small circlip, the one you can see in the picture you posted in the center of the plate. The plate will then come right off and you can put the new one on without removing the timing chain. You can use a 6point 12mm socket to remove the 3 star head bolts.

A while back I posted that I was going to try and tune out the TGV codes with ECU flash and a Tactrix cable. I'm reporting back...do not do this. Either it doesn't work, or I'm an idiot. Both are viable options. I bricked or fried the ECM and have spent the last month trying to dig out of the hole that I dug. I sent the ECM off for repair, but they didn't fix it. I bought a reman for $130 and convinced the dealership 3.5 hours away to reprogram it for me for another $200. 
 

All of that said, you guys are studs for figuring out what you have regarding the TGVs! You're geniuses. Tomorrow I am going to follow your instructions and make the codes vanish. 

In reply to stvnswld :

That sucks you had to go through all that but glad to hear you got it running at least! Good luck on the fix, hope to hear there are no issues!

I definitely should have read your post better. I have the correct, 2017 gears installed.

I went back and made sure the A magnet was on the passenger side, B magnet on drivers side. Opposite of original 2011. I then made sure my wires were swapped properly, and they are. I then made sure the washer spacing was correct with a caliper, and it is. Lastly I made sure the timing was correct with the magnets, and it is as close as I can see, correct. I have tried re-adjusting again several times. I'm still getting a check engine light after clearing the codes.

Next step is to probe the wires with a multimeter, to see what is being sent/read from the sensors.

Skenton: make sure you have a way of holding the cam gears when you loosen the nuts and remove the clip, if the chain is still on and under tension, it will want to pull the gear off, making a lot more work if it does. I had a second person hold it in place while I switched the plates.

In reply to SubArooDude :

It does sound like you have everything correct - you have 2 washers per side and they are set between the gears and magnet and you are using the 2011 Actuator/sensors correct? I know you said so but good to go over the basics again just to be sure. 

I'll triple check this evening before diving into the electrical.

Here's a reference to the wire colours.

In reply to SubArooDude :

Yep, those are the wires/pins I swapped on connectors E51 and E55. There is no chance you pinned the butterflys open during your mods or anything obstructing them from moving right?

The 2011 Forester actuators/sensors (that you want to use) do not really have much identifying information on them. The 2017 Legacy parts are probably made/labeled by Denso and are scrap (like the white magnets) for this application.

With the actuators removed check if the butterflys move easily using your fingers as a sanity check.

Edit - One other thought, check if all 5 pins in each connector are still visible from the face. In the past I have had pins that did not "lock" into position like they should after (re)installation. Maybe one of the pin locking tabs needs a small tweak or something?

Both butterflies move freely. Nothing stopping them from moving.

I only removed pins 4&5, but all the wires are fully seated.

I tried adjusting the magnets further but still no success. Unfortunately my multimeter has grown legs, so I may need to wait till I have a replacement to do further electrical testing. I think in the meantime I might grab the old butterfly's/TGV setup off the old intake, plug it in like it was setup before just as a sanity check. Wondering if I did something to one of the sensors/actuators that might have caused one to fail.

Edit: also made sure I'm not using the newer, Denso labeled actuators.