Subaru Legacy Cat question

I have a 1996 Outback, and it needs a new cat (it keeps setting a code for it, and it runs like crap). The dealer wants $2400 to install a new one (no thanks), a local muffler shop said they could do it for about half that (still nothanks if I have the choice). I tried a google search, and all of the auto parts stores only sell them for 49 state cars, and dont ship them to cali. I tried calling and asking why, and all I got was someone who barly spoke english saying they dont sell cats for california cars, thanks goodbye. Since I live in california, what should i do? Im thinking about just buying a 49 state cat anyway, but is there any difference?

Your Cali cat is different than the 49 unit. If you do not install the Cali cat there is a possibility of 1) the cat not cleaning the exhaust well enough to turn off the codes 2) the 49 not fitting at all 3) the inspector looking at your cat upon inspection and disallowing your tag.

$2400 is a bargain compared to a new Scoobydoo

The car isnt worth what the 2 new cats cost (about $2200). The 49 state ones are less than $400. Does anyone know for sure they are different?

It's quite likely the only difference is that the 49-state cat hasn't been through the CARB approval process, which is expensive and a pain in the butt. I know that's the case for Miata aftermarket cats. As long as the "federal" cats are three-way, you should be fine. You'll fail a visual inspection if someone looks, but you shouldn't have trouble with the sniffer test.

Keep in mind that a "bad cat" code is really a "rear O2 sensor is not giving the readings I expect" code.

Where are you at? I had the Cat on the mercedes done a few years ago for 100$. I am located near Frisco. Maybe you have a different type of cat than I do. My car has passed the last two smog tests on the treadmill so I guess it isn't the cat stopping me. Go talk to as many shops as you can before commiting, also look for junked cars, a used cat will be cheap.

Good luck!

Keith wrote: It's quite likely the only difference is that the 49-state cat hasn't been through the CARB approval process, which is expensive and a pain in the butt. I know that's the case for Miata aftermarket cats. As long as the "federal" cats are three-way, you should be fine. You'll fail a visual inspection if someone looks, but you shouldn't have trouble with the sniffer test. Keep in mind that a "bad cat" code is really a "rear O2 sensor is not giving the readings I expect" code.

Being a '96, I would seriously doubt that they are the same. That was the first year of OBDII, and was the beginnings of the roll in for Caifornia LEV rules.

I'm pretty sure they are different.

And no company who sells cats is legally allowed to sell you anything other than was was originally installed on the vehicle. If it were a non California car, I think they would allow you to put the California harware on it, but for sure, not the other way around.

Have you tired already to swap both O2 sensors?

Eric

I'm also wondering how old the O2 sensors are, I'd look at them 1st.

I'm not sure if a 49 will physically fit, but I'd ask over here; http://ultimatesubaru.org/forum/

I'm sure there's some other Cali folks who will know, you may even be able to find a used one.

A little searching turned up another angle: is your car OBD I or OBD II? Quick check: the OBD II cars have the diagnostic connector under the dash and it's shaped like this:

It appears many of the aftermarket converters are California legal for OBD I but not OBD II cars. Disclaimer: I know ZERO about Cali emissions inspection other that that nothing I own could possibly pass them.

Pretty much anything beginning in '96 is OBDII...a few brands/models might even have started the phase-in with late '95 models. $2400 sounds awfully expensive, so I would definitely keep looking for a less expensive alternative, like used.

I've found that aftermarket high performance cats are world's cheaper than factory cats.

The last one I priced was about 1/3 the price of a factory one or the low flow factory model from an exhaust shop.

I can tell you that installing a three-way aftermarket cat will get you through California emissions tests, OBD-II or not. It's been done successfully a bunch of times on Miatas. There's nothing magical about the California cats or OBD-II. OBD-II is just a monitoring system, it's not an emissions standard. What's different about California is CARB and their approach to aftermarket parts.

If you really want to know, call up a Subaru dealership and get the part number. I'll bet it's the same in California and everywhere else. It might not be - 1999-00 Miatas, for example, have an extra cat - but that'll tell you if the 49-state version will be appropriate.

A friend of mine owns a 1997 Legacy GT, and when his (non-California) cat went out he was faced with an equivalent bill. Which he solved by going aftermarket.

Anyhow, if this was my car, I'd start by finding out what the exact code is - numerically, not the short description like "bad cat" - and look it up in a factory manual. That'll give you all of the things that could trigger the code, from a loose ground to a bad ECU. A real-time OBD-II readout can also tell you what's going on by letting you spy on what the sensors are actually saying.

It seems Subie cats haven't changed much in 20 years... back in 1988 I needed a new one for my '82 wagon... the cheapest I could find at the time was at the dealer for $800... no aftermarket replacements were available at the time. Subie cats are kinda weird...

FWIW, I looked up the cat on my crash database. The converters shown are listed as "federal". They do not list any others, but that designation usually means the CA ones would have different p/n's for whatever reason.

I think most of you are missing the point. Even IF an aftermarket cat will work, no company would risk their buisness in selling a non-correct CARB catalyst. there are big fines involved with that.

I'm sure a good aftermarket cat would work, too. But this is California, they have their own emissions rules, and few companies will try to mess with them.

Still, check the O2 sensors. If it's running badly, then they could be a culprit.

Eric

I could get a 49 state cat without having to have it shipped to cali, that wouldnt be too big a deal. I talked to a muffler shop, and they said they would put on a cat that was not technically legal in cali, but it was an OBDII legal replacement and it would pass the smog test. According to what the guy told me, on OBDII cars, you pretty much have to buy a cat from the dealer or just scrap the car when the cat goes bad if you want to be 100% legal. Does anyone know if the 49 state direct fit cats have any marking on them that make it obvious that is what they are?

So, if you move to Cali and take your non Cali emissions car with you, do the cali regs apply to replacing emissions parts on that car too?

I'm thankful I live in Wisconsin. I've replaced the cats on both my Suby and BMW in the last year. Aftermarket is still expensive, particularly on the BMW--dealership wanted $4,200. Aftermarket was still about $1,500. Ouch.

Travis_K wrote: I could get a 49 state cat without having to have it shipped to cali, that wouldnt be too big a deal. I talked to a muffler shop, and they said they would put on a cat that was not technically legal in cali, but it was an OBDII legal replacement and it would pass the smog test. According to what the guy told me, on OBDII cars, you pretty much have to buy a cat from the dealer or just scrap the car when the cat goes bad if you want to be 100% legal. Does anyone know if the 49 state direct fit cats have any marking on them that make it obvious that is what they are?

An aftermarket component that's legal in California should have a sticker or marking on it with the CARB EO number. Without the EO, you will fail a visual inspection - assuming, of course, that someone gets under the car to check.

"OBD-II legal" isn't really a correct term. It's the same thing as saying "functional".

Road trip to Vegas or Lake Tahoe and have it done there.

Short answer, yes. You need to add the missing parts.

Long answer, yes, but their could be a cap on the cost needed to be spent. once at the cap, they would exempt the requirement. Talk to a referee shop (california thing) about the cost. That alone could make you OK to install an aftermarket one legally in California.

ON my 96 Nissan, I had installed a header made for a 95 with carb eo number. It did not apply to the 96. Emissions wise, it would have passed with flying colors, but because Mr Thorley did not get the eo number again in 96, it did not pass visual. If you know someone who will pass it, go for the aftermarket. If you do not, search the junk yards for one that works(if they will sell it to you.

I would try the referee shop first. Good luck

From the inspections I have had done in California, I have never seen anyone check to see if there is even a cat on the car1! Hell I am even considering putting a Weber (fake the hose attachments of course) on an 87 since it will make it run a lot better and the last underhood inspection looked at lot like "yup, engine is there".

Clearly, you first need to check the O2 sensors, and the outputs, readings, wiring, etc.

Then, if you need cats, here's an option.

I can't speak for Cali, but I know it is illegal in GA for a muffler shop to remove or change the cats in any way...

...BUT if a car drives in with none in place, they are not required to replace them.

Clearly, you need cats in Cali. But it might be interesting to call a local muffler shop and say, "My car doesn't have any exhaust system on it. Can I bring it in and have you install some after market cats?".

Worth a shot.

I talked to the muffler shop, and they said they would put in a universal type cat for $700. But, it wouldnt technically be legal. From what i can find out, the only legal way to do it is to spend almost $2k for a cat from the dealer. But, if the same car was registered in a different state, you can buy a cat that bolts right in for under $200.

What does "technically be legal" mean?

Is there any method in CA for actually checking the specific cat, or only the emissions? I have a hard time imagining a police officer crawling under the car and looking at the part numbers.

Opt: #1- spend the $2k and have something legal.

Opt. #2- sell the car to one of your grassroots buddies in another state, and buy something legal.

Opt. #3- install the $700 cats, hope they work out, and if not, sell the car to one of your not-so grassroots buddies in another state (because your grassroots buddies can no longer afford to reimburse you the cost of those ridiculously overpriced aftermarket cats you put on the thing), and buy something legal.

Such is the cost of living in beautiful California!

SVreX wrote: What does "technically be legal" mean? Is there any method in CA for actually checking the specific cat, or only the emissions? I have a hard time imagining a police officer crawling under the car and looking at the part numbers. Opt: #1- spend the $2k and have something legal. Opt. #2- sell the car to one of your grassroots buddies in another state, and buy something legal. Opt. #3- install the $700 cats, hope they work out, and if not, sell the car to one of your not-so grassroots buddies in another state (because your grassroots buddies can no longer afford to reimburse you the cost of those ridiculously overpriced aftermarket cats you put on the thing), and buy something legal. Such is the cost of living in beautiful California!

Technically means when he has an inspection IF the inspector checks the catalyst, both him and the muffler shop could be in trouble. You asked about taking the cats out, but that won't work at all- it WILL set a check engine light, and the first item the California inspectors check is the light- if it's lit, you fail. Which is the point of OBDII in the first place.

California takes emissions rather seriously. And keeps me well employed. :)

Eric

SVreX wrote: What does "technically be legal" mean? Is there any method in CA for actually checking the specific cat, or only the emissions? I have a hard time imagining a police officer crawling under the car and looking at the part numbers. Opt: #1- spend the $2k and have something legal. Opt. #2- sell the car to one of your grassroots buddies in another state, and buy something legal. Opt. #3- install the $700 cats, hope they work out, and if not, sell the car to one of your not-so grassroots buddies in another state (because your grassroots buddies can no longer afford to reimburse you the cost of those ridiculously overpriced aftermarket cats you put on the thing), and buy something legal. Such is the cost of living in beautiful California!

There are actually 4 options

revised option 3. Pay $700 to have the muffler shop put in a universal replacement cat, which meets the cali emissions standards but technically doesnt pass the visuial inspection, but problally wont be noticed.

option 4. order a bolt in replacement car that is 49 state legal for $190, which according to the muffler shop doesnt have enough platinum to pass cali emissions and doesnt last as long, or may just not be approved in cali but be the same thing.

So, which do I do?