[Updated as of April 7]
Summit Point Motorsports Park recently announced that both all-electric and hybrid vehicles are no longer permitted in motorsport activities on its grounds:
Our commitment to the safety of participants, clients, spectators, and employees at Summit Point Motorsports Park is an ongoing process. Best practices are continually scrutinized and revised.
Upon review of SAE (Society of Automotive …
They're only talking about on track activities, right? They don't care what you drive to the track, just what you drive on the track?
In reply to MiniDave :
Being able to show up and park is still ok was how I interpreted it as well.
I wouldn't consider showing up and parking as a motorsports activity for the vehicle.
well, frell
hopefully this develops in a different direction, eventually... especially for cars with "nonvolatile" battery chemistries?
guess I have some SAE and NFPA documents to read
Can someone summarize what the concern is here? Battery fires?
While rare, when EV's catch fire it is just like a road flare and can't really be put out. While I get the frustration, I imagine this is a valid safety and likely insurance cost issue. We'll all figure it out but it sure isn't addressed yet.
There may also be concerns about damage to the track surface if they can't extinguish the fire. That could shut the track down for extended periods.
Meanwhile, Atlanta Motorsports Park is moving in the opposite direction, as announced in a press release last week.
In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :
Their inability to safely extinguish the battery fires.
They appear to post updates/notes/photos/etc. daily on their facebook page but I guess have avoided mentioning this there or on their main website so far.
In reply to Colin Wood :
As a gear head I know just how stupid and provincial some regulators are. In fact I'm sure anyone who has been through race tech inspection often enough can cite example after example.
That's OK. We have countless places to race, they don't have countless numbers of entrants.
Maybe the initial investment to handle the instances with EVs are too high right now for them. They will have to eventually give in, especially since most supercars are all going electric as well.
In reply to Placemotorsports :
And a lot of high end race series too.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:Can someone summarize what the concern is here? Battery fires?
I have read about a number of instances where electric vehicles have caught fire and putting them out has been very problematic. As I recall a couple would not extinguish until they were completely burnt down / out. Water does not work as it is traditionally used. It was suggested full emersion might. But current methods and materials are not well suited to the chemical type of fire electric vehicles create.
There is also the clean up afterwards given the chemicals involved.
This seems to be pretty common. A few of the tracks near me don't allow any EVs for Track Night events. It's definitely a barrier for me switching to EV. I want to be able to play with my DD on track, even if only occasionally.
Hi - Andrew from teamPGR here, and I've talked quite a bit with a number of track owners/managers and they seem to fall into a few different categories:
I think it's also important to point out that there hasn't been a single instance of a fire on a racetrack. There have been EV crashes and other incidents, but none of them have created fires. In fact fires with EVs are not often related to standard driving, they have generally happened during or just after charging or from foreign object damage (the vehicle getting ripped in half by a pole or a large piece of metal getting run over.) The cars are all engineered to be conservative with their performance parameters exactly because no manufacturer wants to see a car burn.
In the last 3-4 years running the teamPGR EVs we've been to tracks and had conversations with managers who hold each of the views above. At this point I think there's a couple big issues that probably need to be resolved by some sort of sanctioning body to get everyone together and working toward a solution.
It's entirely reasonable for tracks to want to provide a safe environment for participants, employees and spectators. It doesn't make sense to simply prohibit EVs if they are a business opportunity and a growing portion of the enthusiast landscape.
If we can get a group together and set a standard for what cars and what prep is necessary, and train and equip the tracks to respond to EV issues when they occur and cover the costs by allowing them to charge for the energy needed to power the cars there is a win/win possible.
NASA and Grid Life seems to have figured this out - and are specifically including new models in their EV classes on a case by case basis, and working with tracks to ensure they are prepared appropriately so kudos to them.
In reply to L5wolvesf :
Yes it's mostly the fear of fires, both for the negative effects on the participant, but also for the track because of the potential damage. EVs are not all similar in design or materials, so painting them all with a broad brush doesn't really make much sense. See my comment below.
84FSP said:While rare, when EV's catch fire it is just like a road flare and can't really be put out. While I get the frustration, I imagine this is a valid safety and likely insurance cost issue. We'll all figure it out but it sure isn't addressed yet.
Right. They are in business to make money, right now they figure they can't swing the potential liability/emergency response upgrade expenses to justify a currently (har, har) exceedingly small market.
As EV track cars become more common and safety equipment gets cheaper, I am sure they will change their mind. It's a valid business decision either way, and depends on quite a few factors.
In reply to Gninoked :
I think the opposite (for now).
The fact that EVs are not similar is exactly WHY they should be limited as a group right now.
It's not reasonable to think that track officials and safety stewards should be well-versed in all the variations of EVs and the associated risks. Their job is protecting EVERYONE, and the easiest way (for now) is to limit EV participation.
Eventually, there will be lists of vehicles disallowed (like the high CoG vehicles in autocross). After that, industry safety professionals will learn the variety of risks, and what to watch for.
Racers modify E36 M3, and push their vehicles to the limits (and beyond). It's pretty hard for a track official to tell when he is looking at an OEM built EV and one that poses a potential risk.
Its temporary.
In reply to CrashDummy :
There's only a couple that we know of having done events at probably ~20 in the last 4 years.
Note: SCCA Track Night lists more here: https://www.tracknightinamerica.com/pages/electric-vehicles-on-track - but the track themselves might not have made that designation, SCCA did in some cases, examples:
SV reX said:In reply to Gninoked :
I think the opposite (for now).
The fact that EVs are not similar is exactly WHY they should be limited as a group right now.
It's not reasonable to think that track officials and safety stewards should be well-versed in all the variations of EVs and the associated risks. Their job is protecting EVERYONE, and the easiest way (for now) is to limit EV participation.
Eventually, there will be lists of vehicles disallowed (like the high CoG vehicles in autocross). After that, industry safety professionals will learn the variety of risks, and what to watch for.
Racers modify E36 M3, and push their vehicles to the limits (and beyond). It's pretty hard for a track official to tell when he is looking at an OEM built EV and one that poses a potential risk.
Its temporary.
I don't think the variations in EVs change how fires are addressed, but they may affect the likelihood of a fire happening. Track-focused EVs are likely to remain with the "hotter" chemistries for some time because they have better discharge rates.
I agree that a track needs to be prepared for a potential fire (in training, at least) but I don't think the fact that EVs are not all identical is a reason to ban them all as long as the procedures are the same. The good news is that, since hybrids are not just appearing at the Lemons level but also the Le Mans level, procedures are being developed at a high level. The tracks don't have to figure it out themselves, they can do things like look at the FIA requirements that likely exist.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
If a track is not prepared to face an EV fire, then they are not prepared to face ANY EV fire.
They have obligations way beyond their participants. Like their insurance liability. And OSHA.
If a track has not been able to fully equip their facility with the equipment necessary, and fully train their staff to know how to fight EV fires, then they have an obligation to not allow EVs to run.
Our own Andrew Nelson recently had a terrible wreck. What if something like that happened in an EV? What if someone was trapped inside? Does the track staff know how to handle the fire, and how to safely extract someone from the wreckage? Do they know what to do with all the tangled wires hanging in every direction?
It's not an option for a track. Until they are properly prepared and trained, they need to restrict EVs.
I'm not arguing with that. My point is that the variations in EVs don't really matter. They all act about the same with regards to extinguishing fires and extracting people and dealing with wires.
We will likely see new rules such as a clearly accessible and labeled "cut to trigger pyro fuse" wire, like the one that is built into my car. It's functionally equivalent to an externally accessible kill switch. May or may not be necessary but when you activate it you know for sure.
In reply to SV reX :
Yeah that is interesting to think about.
Maybe EVs are just different? In the long run (~10 years?) is does not seem to me like there will be the ability to inspect an EV like a ICE race car. The relevant and important bits are all sealed in the pack, the electronics and the software/configurations. No OEM is going to give out anything like that because they are all trade and competitive secret.
Realistically there's only 3 (maybe 5-6 if you stretch) production EVs that should be a on track right now, so it's much easier to include vs exclude specifically. Model 3, Plaid/Palladium, and Taycan (Nevera may be in production, X palladium and Y perf are engineered for track type use.)
It's also interesting to think about some of the wave of performance Hybrids that are coming - those also have Lion packs of various sizes and designs - are they also to be excluded everywhere? If so why? If not, why?
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I'm not sure this is true. So far there probably isn't differences in battery chemistry in production that would make a difference to fire fighting strategy - those are still in development. But the differences in design do require different strategies to put out the fire. For instance this Rosenbauer device will likely work fine on a older Model 3 or Taycan, but probably wont work on any of the newer packs that are encased in the structural fire suppressing foam (which of course are probably far less likely to be on fire in the first place...)
https://rosenbaueramerica.com/rosenbauer-battery-extinguishing-system-technology/
Having first responder guides available are important too because not all cars are putting HV wires in the same locations etc. I do agree on your point about the kill switch - that is nice to have built in OEM and perhaps making that accessible outside of the car will be a helpful improvement in safety for all.
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