Super 302 Swap

what

It had a 700 cfm carb along with many other goodies.

Hopefully a second carburetor...

Texas A&M Racing wrote: The block is actually 396 CI, it was a typo. We should be getting it in here pretty soon so we'll know more about if the block is aftermarket or not. I'm assuming it has to be stroked and overbored to get an extra 94 ci out of it. It had a 700 cfm carb along with many other goodies. We'll be sure to throw up some pictures when we get it in.

You can't get 396 ci or 700 hp out of a factory 302 block.

If it's 396 - it's a 9.2" or 9.5" block.....can you say 351?

396 big block?

I want to see the pictures. Either someone's full of E36 M3 or it's a 351 block, not a 302. (Fast check if you're not totally familiar with the engines - distance from the timing cover to the deck surface is negligible on a 302, fairly large on a 351)

Given that it's supposedly 700hp with a 700cfm carb, I'm going to shade towards "full of E36 M3".

I've seen this telephone game stuff before, too. We built a mild SBC for a guy, low compression/mild cam bottom end, rebuilt his ancient iron heads (they had no accessory holes in the front, as a clue how old they were). Nothing at all fancy. Engine also had one of those B&M 194 mini-blowers on it and a smallish carburetor. Nice street engine that made fun noises and looked great.

Guy advertised the car for sale as having a "900hp race engine" in it. Uh, no, not even half that.

Unless I'm mistaken, the reason small block stroker kits max out at 347 CID is that the rod bolts begin to interfere with the side of the block.

3.4" stroke is used mainly because it allowed the use of a cut-down Cleveland crank, Pinto connecting rods, and Chevy pistons. Now, since you can get off the shelf 3.4" cranks and rods and pistons made for the swap cheaper than machining 40 year old parts, it's mainly inertia.

3.5" stroke will also fit but it requires more expensive pistons, and you start to really run into problems with the counterweights.

Will wrote: Unless I'm mistaken, the reason small block stroker kits max out at 347 CID is that the rod bolts begin to interfere with the side of the block.

...and you're getting into funky rod angles not to mention the piston pins in oil ring lands...

Can't be too bad, it's the same pistons as a 6" rod 383/406 Chevy. (Ever notice that the 5.4 rods have Chevy pin diameters instead of Ford?) 5.4 rod and 3.4 stroke makes 1.59 rod/stroke, well within the bounds of the world not ending.

Now if you want scary, figure what you gotta do to make a 604ci, non-tall-deck big block Chevy. Brr. But that works just fine, too.

Knurled wrote: Can't be too bad, it's the same pistons as a 6" rod 383/406 Chevy. (Ever notice that the 5.4 rods have Chevy pin diameters instead of Ford?) 5.4 rod and 3.4 stroke makes 1.59 rod/stroke, well within the bounds of the world not ending.

Actually, 1.59 isn't very good at all for a street engine, and I surely wouldn't want to make it any worse on a SBF. The longevity of a 347 is considerably less than an otherwise identical 331 for that reason. Most builders try to stay to the safe side of 1.6 on SBF rod ratio. That said, I'm building a 347 right now. It offers more torque across the entire RPM range when compared with a 331, and since I put maybe a couple thousand miles a year on the car, I thought I'd give it a try, despite lots of advice from engine builders and machinists that I should stick with a 331. But I'd never build anything bigger than a 331 for a daily driver type of car. I have a block in my shop with major scuff marks in the cylinders as a result of that 347 rod ratio.

bravenrace wrote: Actually, 1.59 isn't very good at all for a street engine, and I surely wouldn't want to make it any worse on a SBF.

FWIW, Audi turbo engines (also Corrado G60) have the same stroke and 5.35" long rods and they work just fine and last a zillion miles. HEAVY pistons, too.

Chevy LT5s (4-cam ZR1!) are worse, Honda B18s and K24s are also worse than that. How high do people rev K24s with their 1.53 ratio?

In reply to Knurled:

Obviously, there is no way I'd convince you of anything, so let's just say you're right and many, many, professional SBF builders are wrong, k? Keep in mind that I'm talking about an old V-8, and I'm not talking about a high end race engine, but an engine that is designed to go 100k miles between rebuilds. I'm simply saying that at a rod ratio worse than about 1.60, piston side thrust becomes an issue for engine longevity over the long haul. Nobody totally agrees on these numbers, so nit picking between 1.55 and 1.6 is just that. That point is also going to vary based on engine design. Agree to disagree.
And BTW, a stock LT5 has a rod ratio of 1.57, same as the Audi, and Honda's are inline engines which have different loading patterns than a V-8

You guys have an FSAE group right?

OK seriously, I'd put it in an RX7. Newer is technically better but less cool.

Put it in something light and aerodynamic, maybe try to build a streamliner. See how it does in the Texas Mile?

^Could be an interesting project, but 700hp in the streamliner world is an ankle-biter. Room for a couple of turbos maybe?

Texas A&M Racing wrote: So lets assume that a certain student organization has access to a Ford 302. Now this isn't your normal 302, but a fully built 302 with a reported 700 HP at the crank. Seeing as how they already have a pretty bitching Miata built for autocross and are currently working on a second project to bring to the $2013 challenge, what should they put it into? The car we're currently working on doesn't have a build thread (that will be soon fixed), but it's a late model fox body mustang. We don't really have the (GRM) budget to swap in a new trans and diff which won't shatter under 15% throttle. Assume the 302'd car won't see the GRM track, and therefore budget, but don't think we have the cash lying around for anything ridiculous. So what would everyone build with a badass 302? Dedicated drag car, hillclimber, wheel to wheel track car; and what would be the chassis it goes into?

I have a clean Volvo 960 that would accept the Ford engine easily and that I will sell for $500

dodge 318's have a great rod ratio

Build a streamliner for LSR type racing. Or one mile drag.

There are places to run one N/A and that is pretty good power.

If it can survive it.. gonna need to study on that a bit.

A certain ugly spitfire.

Just to make StuAct E36 M3 their pants.

Bobzilla wrote:

Damn good looking coupe...

bravenrace wrote: That point is also going to vary based on engine design. Agree to disagree.

I will grant that Ford has a long and storied history of using almost enough iron in the cylinder walls, and this may pose more issues than in, say, a 2.1l Audi five-cylinder, which weighs MORE than a 302. Lotta iron in them blocks. (OTOH the block and crank are extremely, extremely stout - crank or block failures are simply unheard of, period)