Super Responsive Dual Clutch Transmissions

Most DCTs in cars feel great due to snappy shifts but I've always been unsatisfied because of an unacceptable amount of delay between upshift pedal pulled to when the shift engagement took place.

I don't know about others, but I would rather have a super responsive, (shiftable) conventional automatic than an unresponsive DCT which begins its 0.0x sec advertised shift 1s to 0.x secs after the pedal was pulled.

Ideally, shiftable auto transmissions should be as responsive as clutchless sequential racing transmissions where pulling a pedal/lever instantly initiates the shift.

Engine noise, torque, power, power delivery, & desirable rev characteristics makes for a memorable engine. Combine this with a super responsive transmission, playful, fast and predictable handling and you have a phenomenal, modern driver's car.

Without getting into hypercar category, I understand the 991/991.2 GT3 & Ferrari DCTs, Speciale, 488 etc are the best in the business.

I think even an MK6/7 Golf DSG is more responsive than a 2013 C63 AMG. I do not think a Renault Clio RS dct is responsive either. New ND MX5's auto is calibrated very nicely but it just doesn't satisfy. On the other hand, the new Mini 3 cylinder turbo's auto transmission is very responsive even just driven normally in D with transmission behaviour controlled via throttle pedal, very satisfying! SLS AMG's transmission was improved simply through a software recalibration in the SLS AMG GT, which was amazing in comparison.

1) Has there ever been a DCT comparison/shootout in a magazine/show that compared the current performance-oriented DCTs, especially their responsiveness (lack of time between shift pedal pulled & shift initiating & quality of software calibration in general)?

2) Do the knowledgeable members of this forum have personal insight about any cars at different price points who, DCT or not, were gems because of their automatic transmissions' amazing responsiveness?

I haven't driven many but you definitely have a good point. I think the only dual clutch car I've driven was a brand new Golf GTI last fall. Manual mode was very disappointing, I can bang gears in any 3 pedal crapcan with tired synchros faster than that thing would respond.

EDIT: Apparently I didn't know how to operate the thing, in my defense, it was a rental. Intuition would dictate that deliberately playing with the sporty features should make the thing behave sporty automatically without further dicking around.

BrokenYugo wrote: Manual mode was very disappointing, I can bang gears in any 3 pedal crapcan with tired synchros faster than that thing

In the mk7s you have to go into the menu and set it to "kill" mode if you don't want it to shift leisurely.

My mk6 is almost seamless.

I dont know what to say other than i'm glad someone is pointing out the different between 'time to complete the shift' and 'time until the shift actually STARTS'. I love dual clutches in theory but the way they've actually been implemented in mainstream cars has been disappointing at times.

Seems like normal cars are all going to go back to regular autos. I still think a torque converter equipped DCT is probably the ideal. But like many things in the car world, responsiveness will cease to matter when you can no longer drive the car anyway. Nobody is going to notice the lag time between when the computer tells the wheels to turn and when they turn, or when it tells the trans to shift etc. Deck chairs on the titanic and all that.

When I drove a 2007 GTI with the DSG, I tried it in Sport mode and in manual mode. Sport mode did what I wanted to just before I could trigger my hand to do it, by itself. Granted, this was on a street, during a test drive, but I was fairly impressed by it.

That's pretty much my experience with them. I think the next car I buy is going to be a DSG something or other.

In reply to Brett_Murphy:

I was very impressed with the DSG in both GTI's I've test driven...and those were pretty "exuberant" drives. I'd love to give you a comparison between it & the PDK in the GT2 I had the pleasure of flogging a few times around the autox course, but it was so damn good in automatic mode there was no reason for me to attempt to shift it manually.

Vigo wrote: I still think a torque converter equipped DCT is probably the ideal.

How would that even work?

I have an SMG M3 and in mode "6" (after traction control is off) it will spin its wheels in any gear between shifts and break your neck. It shifts fast and violent, and instantly. I like that.

Porsches PDK is, by comparison, rather smooth with no drama and incredible speed and efficiency.

Team Sahlen just took a victory with a Porsche Cayman at the AER 9-Hours at Watkins Glen, using a PDK transmission.

http://www.teamsahlen.com/index.cfm?template=news&news_id=6187

How would that even work?

Instead of having a pwm 'start clutch' functionality you would have a torque converter. You could basically take a DCT and either put both clutch packs inside a torque converter, or behind one. It will never happen because it isn't enough better to normal people to justify the added cost and complexity. But, seems to me it would be nice if launch control in a DCT car (which as it stands is essentially equivalent to a neutral drop in an old auto trans) didn't have to buried behind a complicated procedure of clicks and twists and swipes and was gentle enough on the trans that you could engage it simply by having your feet on both pedals. Maybe then a lot of these modern exotics would actually be quicker to 60 than an old 6.1L Grand Cherokee without requiring 10 seconds of 'staging' time first. One irony of my silly idea is that it would make a DCT similar in some ways to an old Honda automatic which was sort of an automated manual that replaced dog clutches with wet clutch packs and was driven by a torque converter.

Also, start clutch behavior under normal driving in general is just irritating if you're the type to let yourself think about it. Which most people aren't.

I thought this already happened with the 2015Acura TLX 2.4. Not sure if that is what you are saying though.

Some magazine or car show needs to do a drivetrain shootout between cars at varrying price points starting from your Clios & Golfs to BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Japanese & Italian autos & DCTs to Supercars & Hypercars.

For Transmissions, they can have two lists, auto/DC & manual. Auto/DC can focus on responsiveness, calibration, useful modes like EVO X DCT & finally shift times.

Manual can focus on shift effort & precision, quality of shift, clutch uptake/engagement, clutch effort, ease of heal-and-toeing, etc.

Steering can focus on steering effort (heavy/light), feedback/feel precision, quickness, whether steering makes car easy to drive at the limit and around town.

Engine can focus on how it makes most drivers feel (as it's the heart of the car), engine noise inside & out, smoothness or rawness, power & torque curves, how easily it revs, its redline, intake noise inside cabin, in case of FI, compressor whistle noise excites or not, throttle response, power delivery, etc.

Much of this info exists in different reviews by good car journalists, like Steve Sutcliffe, Chris Harris, Matt Prior, Dan Prosser and many times MororTrend has good, geeky info as well. Even if it's just compiled in form of video clips, it may not be objective but it would be a great source.

But if a magazine or car show took this up, just like driver's car shootouts where cheap and expensive cars are all relevant, it would be the ultimate, modern car enthusiast's bible, whoever chose to do it and did it well.

Oddly, the only DCTs I've driven are in high end cars. The paddle shifts in the Lamborghini Huracan and Gallardo, Porsche GT3 and Ferrari Italia are lightning quick. However, most of the driving I've done in them has been on a track giving rides and I'm usually talking and pointing when I do that so I generally let them shift for themselves. The calibrations are really impressive and other than the fun factor I'm not sure that there's anything to be gained by shifting manually.

I've never used launch control in any of them so I can't comment on that.

The GT3's start clutch calibration sucks and I would find it really annoying in traffic. That's probably just well though. If it was better the car would be so perfect that I'd be even more tempted to sell my house so I could afford to buy one and Mrs. APEowner has already expressed displeasure with that idea.

APEowner wrote: I've never used launch control in any of them so I can't comment on that.

You're missing out. Launch control on some of these cars is like being a space monkey shot out of a cannon. A cannon powerful enough to defeat gravity and launch said space monkey into outer space - assuming its internal organs could survive the g-forces without liquefying.

In reply to APEowner:

After experiencing the GT2 I was quite disappointed to discover spare internal organs do not have a higher market value.

The PDK in my 911 (not a GT3) is as smooth in traffic stop and go as the auto in my Acura. Others that I have driven in a Focus, GTI, and Audi TT were not.

I thought this already happened with the 2015Acura TLX 2.4. Not sure if that is what you are saying though.

Yes, that's exactly what that is and what i'm talking about. Happened for basically the same reasons i've been annoyed with 'non-exotic' DCT start clutch behaviour too. So yeah you're right on the money. Question is if it will be implemented outside of one range of one manufacturer.

Honda trans article