03-05 neon
There are tons out there, largely old lady driven very cheap to buy, very cheap to own, very cheap to insure.
Non 2.7 powered LH cars are good as well
03-05 neon
There are tons out there, largely old lady driven very cheap to buy, very cheap to own, very cheap to insure.
Non 2.7 powered LH cars are good as well
It still amazes me every time one of these threads comes up and everyone bashes SAAB but still recomends BMWs that the cooling system is a wear item.
I bought a 99 9-3 with 75K on it and 8 years later gave it to my brother with just south of 200K and in non maint. items it cost me very little. One fuel pump (@150 from the Zone), 1 AC comp (used) and that is it. If that is unreliable I can live with that.
They get great gas mileage, are very comfortable, and have enough power to be fun to drive. Do they handle like a BMW, no but given the option between the 99 323 my friend had and my 9-3 the 9-3 was a better car over all.
Do yourself a favor and take one for a drive before writing them off.
There is also this:
2002 Saab 9-5 Aero (Posted 10/9/2010)
Color: black Trans: Automatic Mileage: 166,000 Price: $4800 This Saab 9-5 AERO is in incredible condition, has been meticulously cared for mechanically by one of the best Saab mechanics in America, and has spent the majority of its service life in North Carolina. The High Output Turbo delivers spectacular performance when needed (0-60mph in 6.6 sec) but the 4 cylinders conserve fuel ( 26 mpg city/31 mpg on the highway). The car has never been smoked in, the leather frequently conditioned, and oil changed every 4000 mi. This vehicle was my every day commuter for a round trip of 112 easy uncrowded highway miles; so ~90% of service has been on the highway! The a/c blows cold, the front seats are heated and ventilated, and the leather is in great condition. The front spoiler and hood have small areas of wear but overall the exterior is in excellent condition. Touring Package - Windshield wipers with rain sensors, rear parking assistance sensors, automatic mirrors. Sport Ventilated and Heated Power Front Seats. Xenon Headlights. Cared for by Tommy Townsend "the Saabmaster" of Townsend Imports, www.townsendimports.com. Just fully serviced 10/8/10. 2 working keys and all manuals. The title is clear and emissions certification is current. Contact: John Nulty, Jamestown NC Email: Click Here Phone: 336 324 3116
Rusted_Busted_Spit wrote: It still amazes me every time one of these threads comes up and everyone bashes SAAB but still recommends BMWs that the cooling system is a wear item.
We owned an '00 Saab 9-3 Base (auto) for about 3-4 years. Here's some of the things we had to deal with:
On top of that, I just felt like I never knew what was going to go next. The 9-3s are also famous for having sludge issues, and the DIC (Direct Ignition Cassette) going bad and stranding you. At the time we owned it I didn't have the ability to do all the work myself, but even with a good independent who was reasonable with cost we spent a fortune on that car. The car seemed to always have something wrong with it that either I or the mechanic was fixing, and I would by no means describe it as reliable. The OP is on a budget, and I think the average deferred maintenance on the car would blow through that quickly. In addition, he seems to have a need to be able to jump in the car and drive it. Ours was a third vehicle at the time we owned it, so I was able to drive another car if something wasn't right. Having to rely on it 100% to go every day would have made me even more frustrated with it.
I would definitely not describe ours as an appliance. If you can stand for the car to be down while you're fixing things and you have the time to DIY everything, it might not be too bad. However, if you need to rely on it day in and day out, it could get old quickly.
I also own an E36, so I can comment on that, too. I did the coolant system replacement proactively when I bought the car. The parts were roughly $350, and I took my time, took pictures, and it took me about 2/3s of a day to complete. Since then, I've had one issue with the car. The expansion tank cap developed a pinhole leak that was giving me slight coolant loss (I should have replaced it when I replaced everything else). Other than that (knock on wood), it's been reliable. I think it's more the devil you know than the devil you don't when comparing the BMW with the Saab. I know exactly what are the big issues with the E36, with the Saab it was a mystery as to what would manifest next. I was very active on Saabnet at the time I owned the car, and my experiences didn't seem to be out of the ordinary.
If you're going to buy a used BMW or Saab, my #1 recommendation is only get one that has a documented maintenance history. The Saab came with 0 maintenance records, the BMW came with a stack. We ended up doing the deferred maintenance on the Saab, whereas the BMW has less deferred maintenance. However, even taking that into account, the Saab had more going wrong than the BMW even though it was newer (5 years old when we bought it) and had fewer miles (we bought it with 54K on it).
Just my $0.02, as everyone's experiences are different.
Rusted_Busted_Spit wrote: It still amazes me every time one of these threads comes up and everyone bashes SAAB but still recomends BMWs that the cooling system is a wear item.
Person 1: You should buy a BMW blankityblank
Person 2: But isn't that model known for blowing up spontaneously after 130k miles?
Person 1: That's due to the nature of a precision engineered machine BMW, other cars may last longer but none will give you lakjhflskjmglkdnhglkdhlkf
Person 2: Well, I suppose I'll noly get one with under 50K so I can avoid that problem.
Person 1: Be careful, after 50K, they need to have the engine mounts, window motors, hood supports, wheel bearings and cylinder heads replaced.
Person 2: That sounds like a lot of work and money.
Person 1: Oh it's really easy. As long as you have a set of (insert oddball toolset costing thousands) and about 4-5 good spare weekends, and a BMW dealership hotline and a healthy credit card you'll be fine.
Person 2: Wouldn't it be easier to buy something other than that? For instance the (insert GM vehicle that's faster, quicker, more reliable, gets better mileage, seats more, costs less etc)
Person 1: Oh no, you'd be missing the point. Sure, that other car would be faster, but it isn't engineered as well, or built as well. You might get interior rattles, and the thing was assembled by some idiots in (insert stereotypical name for region vehicle was made) anyway, why would you want one of those?
This could go on for weeks. Not to hate on BMWs, but this does get entertaining. Especially in Car and Driver.
Do children need to go in the baby seats? I bet you could fit two in a Miata with no children in them.
dj, I think this is the heart of what you wrote "The Saab came with 0 maintenance records, the BMW came with a stack." I had a PPI done at the dealership where the guy had the SAAB worked on.
FYI, the sludge thing is for the 2.3 motor not the 2.0, the only 9-3 that got the 2.3 was the Viggen.
As with anything YMMV, but in my experience they as reliable as just about anything else.
My main saab influence was my moms '90 turbo 900s. Fun car, seemed a little odd under hood. Best part of it was after a $1k headgasket job it burnt it self to the ground in our driveway.
That and my friend had a 9-3 and little things always went wrong like dj's. They wont own another one.
PS the saab might not be saabs fault. She owned a VW bug when she was younger, and it burnt its self to the ground. And a few years ago her f150's cruse control almost caught fire while we were driving it on the highway. I think shes been through 15-20 cell phones over the last few years too :D
~Alex
Rusted_Busted_Spit wrote: dj, I think this is the heart of what you wrote "The Saab came with 0 maintenance records, the BMW came with a stack." I had a PPI done at the dealership where the guy had the SAAB worked on. FYI, the sludge thing is for the 2.3 motor not the 2.0, the only 9-3 that got the 2.3 was the Viggen. As with anything YMMV, but in my experience they as reliable as just about anything else.
Unfortunately, the sludge impacts both motors. Actually, the motor doesn't seem to matter as much as the engine management, as the T7s are more likely to have sludge: http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/bb/NG900/index.html?bID=285802 Any time a motor has multiple PCV revisions, you've got to wonder what's going on. The 9-5s are on revision #6, I believe...
My point was that even discounting deferred maintenance, the Saab had a whole host of things go wrong in at an early age (5-8 years) and relatively low mileage range (54-90K). We had a PPI done, and no concerns were raised. Even with a stack of maintenance records I would count a Saab as a wildcard. They can work for some, but if you're looking for a pure appliance it wouldn't be on my recommended list.
If you've got two kids and all their stuff you'll want something a little bigger than a civic. I'd look at 98-02 accords or a 99+ maxima. Both should be dead reliable. Also if looking at a Honda minivan I'd look at the 95-98 Odyssey. Very simple design w/o the transmission problems.
All this of course is just my opinion.
Also, look at matrix/vibe. I've seen good prices on the 1st gens.
dankspeed wrote: If you've got two kids and all their stuff you'll want something a little bigger than a civic. I'd look at 98-02 accords or a 99+ maxima. Both should be dead reliable. Also if looking at a Honda minivan I'd look at the 95-98 Odyssey. Very simple design w/o the transmission problems. All this of course is just my opinion.
Lots of truth here. For non kids havers, four doors and four seats, kid capable a car does not make. The rear seats don't have enough room for rear facing carseats definitely, and maybe not enough for regular ones, either.
tuna55 wrote: This could go on for weeks. Not to hate on BMWs, but this does get entertaining. Especially in Car and Driver.
I laughed so hard I vomited. Thank you!
Ok, found a candidate.
03 Focus wagon with 130,000 miles for $5K. Looks good, still need to take it for a spin. Only obvious problem is it's an auto. How do the auto transmissions hold up in these? Any other problems I should look out for?
Here it is:
http://dayton.craigslist.org/ctd/2114530333.html
They've also got a 2000 in similar condition for $1K less:
http://dayton.craigslist.org/ctd/2114525787.html
PubBurgers wrote: Ok, found a candidate. 03 Focus wagon with 130,000 miles for $5K. Looks good, still need to take it for a spin. Only obvious problem is it's an auto. How do the auto transmissions hold up in these? Any other problems I should look out for? Here it is: http://dayton.craigslist.org/ctd/2114530333.html They've also got a 2000 in similar condition for $1K less: http://dayton.craigslist.org/ctd/2114525787.html
My old company had bought a few ford focus in their fleet. Cars were great except the AC going out and it being a costly repair. Both had 220k + and were automatics.
Similar Focus wagon w/ less miles http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=290367405&dealer_id=50997478&car_year=2001&doors=&systime=&search_lang=en&start_year=1981&body_style=WAGON&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&search_type=both&distance=50&min_price=44&drive=&rdm=1292894404416&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&fuel=&keywords_display=&sownerid=49685306&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2012&showZipError=y&certified=&engine=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=128&transmission=&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=100000&address=45401&color=&sort_type=priceDESC&max_price=5000&awsp=false&make=&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=39&standard=false
Second choice at the same place
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=279652113&dealer_id=50997478&car_year=2000&doors=&systime=&search_lang=en&start_year=1981&body_style=WAGON&keywordsfyc=&keywordsrep=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&search_type=both&distance=50&min_price=44&rdm=1292894995019&drive=&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&fuel=&keywords_display=&sownerid=49685306&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2012&showZipError=n&certified=&engine=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=128&transmission=&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=100001&address=45401&color=&sort_type=priceDESC&max_price=5000&awsp=false&make=&num_records=25&seller_type=b&cardist=39&standard=false
Saturn Wagon
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=291384714&dealer_id=569045&car_year=2000&doors=&systime=&search_lang=en&start_year=1981&body_style=WAGON&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&search_type=both&distance=50&min_price=44&drive=&rdm=1292894995019&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&fuel=&keywords_display=&sownerid=49685306&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2012&showZipError=n&certified=&engine=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=128&transmission=&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=100001&address=45401&color=&sort_type=priceDESC&max_price=5000&awsp=false&make=&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=16&standard=false
Camry Wagon $2k http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=290167776&dealer_id=65864297&car_year=1995&pager.offset=25&search_lang=en&start_year=1981&body_style=WAGON&search_type=both&distance=50&min_price=44&rdm=1292894995019&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&sownerid=49685306&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2012&showZipError=n&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=128&first_record=26&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=100001&address=45401&sort_type=priceDESC&max_price=5000&awsp=false&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=44&standard=false
I still think mini van is the answer
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=290989764&dealer_id=1153769&car_year=1999&doors=&systime=&search_lang=en&start_year=1981&body_style=VANS&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&search_type=both&distance=50&min_price=44&drive=&rdm=1292895612995&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&fuel=&keywords_display=&sownerid=49685306&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2012&showZipError=n&certified=&engine=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=64&transmission=&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=100001&address=45401&color=&sort_type=priceDESC&max_price=5000&awsp=false&make=&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=34&standard=false
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=285527582&dealer_id=63385383&car_year=2000&pager.offset=25&search_lang=en&start_year=1981&body_style=VANS&search_type=both&distance=50&min_price=44&rdm=1292895612995&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&sownerid=49685306&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2012&showZipError=n&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=64&first_record=26&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=100001&address=45401&sort_type=priceDESC&max_price=5000&awsp=false&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=35&standard=false
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=278682878&dealer_id=58256492&car_year=1999&pager.offset=25&search_lang=en&start_year=1981&body_style=VANS&search_type=both&distance=50&min_price=44&rdm=1292895612995&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&sownerid=49685306&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2012&showZipError=n&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=64&first_record=26&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=100001&address=45401&sort_type=priceDESC&max_price=5000&awsp=false&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=48&standard=false
Mazda MPV:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=288087520&dealer_id=100029976&car_year=2001&pager.offset=25&search_lang=en&start_year=1981&body_style=VANS&search_type=both&distance=50&min_price=44&rdm=1292895612995&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&sownerid=49685306&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2012&showZipError=n&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=64&first_record=26&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=100001&address=45401&sort_type=priceDESC&max_price=5000&awsp=false&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=48&standard=false
if you are not scared anything pre 2000 mercedes will be a decent choice. if you like front engine rwd.
http://dayton.craigslist.org/cto/2122893546.html
http://dayton.craigslist.org/cto/2109816978.html
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/cto/2119072329.html
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/cto/2110422045.html
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/cto/2107837817.html
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/ctd/2104558540.html
jrw1621 wrote: I still think mini van is the answer http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=290989764&dealer_id=1153769&car_year=1999&doors=&systime=&search_lang=en&start_year=1981&body_style=VANS&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&search_type=both&distance=50&min_price=44&drive=&rdm=1292895612995&marketZipError=false&advanced=y&fuel=&keywords_display=&sownerid=49685306&lastBeginningStartYear=1981&end_year=2012&showZipError=n&certified=&engine=&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&body_code=64&transmission=&default_sort=newsortbyprice_DESC&max_mileage=100001&address=45401&color=&sort_type=priceDESC&max_price=5000&awsp=false&make=&seller_type=b&num_records=25&cardist=34&standard=false
Random - did you know the export versions of these could be had with 5-speeds? I wonder if Mexico got them and what the rules are on bringing parts back across the border?! 
I co-op'd at the Tarrytown assembly plant where these were built right before they shut it down and moved everything to Georgia.
In reply to dj06482:
you are corrent, the move to T7 seems to have affected the 2.0 as well. When I was looking for my 9-3 I only looked at 99 SEs and they do not seem to have that issue and when we were looking for our 9-5 I was not paying attention to the 9-3s.
There is not a single European make that I would recomend to someone looking for an appliance, the only thing I am saying is that in my experience my 9-3 was as reliable as anything else I have owned ranging from Toyotas to Alfas.
Went with the 03 Focus wagon. Seems great aside from the automatic and it could probably use a brake job in the not too distant future.
Now i have two red station wagons . 
thanks for all the advice!
Jacques
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